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Post by wyrdwad on Aug 31, 2014 19:57:13 GMT -5
applying jiggle physics to his downstairs equipment (...) The vast majority of female gamers I know would be ALL OVER THAT. Funny, the vast majority of female gamers I know would be either briefly amused (as in, finding it ridiculous and silly) and/or mildly grossed out by that. Clearly, then, we do not know the same women. The term "female gaze" has come up among my friends more than once. It may not be as culturally ingrained as the idea of "male gaze," but I think it's fair to say that most straight women like a good, sexy man just as much as most straight men like a good, sexy woman. But in much the way most men assume that women don't watch porn (they do), I think most men assume that women are above gawking at hot guys in video games (they aren't). And yes, that is a generalization, so YMMV. I'm just speaking from personal experience here. -Tom
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Post by alphex on Aug 31, 2014 20:08:39 GMT -5
The theory of the male gaze is that what is perceived as aesthetically pleasing has been dictated by men for centuries, which is why women also find the same things attractive as men do. For example, making out with other chicks. (Yes, this is kind of a hyperbole) The aforementioned muscular men are another example - it's a male ideal that also implies dominance. And as Bourdieu put it, "some celebrations of femininity simple reinforce male domination". It's ultimately means to preserve the status quo.
So, no, the female gaze is not only "not as ingrained culturally", it's probably incompatible with the theory of male gaze altogether.
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Post by wyrdwad on Aug 31, 2014 20:15:13 GMT -5
The theory of the male gaze is that what is perceived as aesthetically pleasing has been dictated by men for centuries, which is why women also find the same things attractive as men do. For example, making out with other chicks. (Yes, this is kind of a hyperbole) The aforementioned muscular men are another example - it's a male ideal that also implies dominance. And as Bourdieu put it, "some celebrations of femininity simple reinforce male domination". It's ultimately means to preserve the status quo. So, no, the female gaze is not only "not as ingrained culturally", it's probably incompatible with the theory of male gaze altogether. Ehh... guess I can't really say anything in response to that but, "I disagree." I think the only reason "female gaze" works haven't caught on is because women are culturally taught that they're more desirable if they remain pure and chaste, so they fight their urges a lot more than men do (at least publicly!). I believe the urges themselves are the same, however, and that there is no reason women can't lust after male characters in fiction (and I believe they do) just as much as men lust after female characters in fiction. Again, though, I'm not talking about muscular men. I'm talking more about the recent Japanese trend -- the "bishounen," or pretty boys, that are so popular among female otaku. You can see traces of this leaking into American culture as well with the likes of Twilight and such. -Tom
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 20:25:02 GMT -5
You're leaning dangerously close to "neckbeard who thinks he knows way more about women than he actually does" territory, Tom. But I guess that's the target demographic of Akiba's Trip and Senran Kagura, anyway.
And it's ridiculous to think that Twilight's popularity owes anything to anime bishonen "leaking into American culture." You just have anime on the brain too much.
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Post by wyrdwad on Aug 31, 2014 20:38:26 GMT -5
You're misinterpreting me. Though to be fair, I'm giving this discussion very little focus, so I'm probably just not explaining myself well.
I'm saying that the popularity of Edward from Twilight and the popularity of bishounen characters in anime/games stem from the same root: the latent desire for sex (fueled by the natural instinct to procreate, though not necessarily with the intent of procreation) that exists somewhere within just about every human being on the planet (or at least, those that have hit puberty), regardless of gender.
I don't think it's fair to say I'm a "neckbeard who thinks he knows way more about women than he actually does" when I'm speaking in terms of basic sexual nature, which is kind of a well-documented thing that's pretty hard to refute.
Plus, the fact that I'm getting most of this from women (both of the fan and personal friend variety) who have told me, in no uncertain terms, that they would LOVE LOVE LOVE to play a game where they could objectify sexy men the way so many games objectify sexy women.
I also don't appreciate the pot-shots at our games -- especially Akiba's Trip, which I believe I've covered in another topic as being equal-opportunity with its fanservice and existing more for parody than for titillation. Senran Kagura, I'll grant you, but Akiba's Trip seems to have appeal for just as many female gamers as male gamers, based on the roughly equal gender skew of the comments we've been reading from social media (particularly since announcing the addition of "manservice" portraits).
-Tom
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Post by dooz on Aug 31, 2014 20:40:12 GMT -5
I like how everyone on both sides of the "sexism in gaming" argument refer to each gender as having separate opinions, which is inherently sexist.
This thread has become stupid. Let's talk about ferrets.
Ferrets, Minks and Weasels belong to the same family Ferrets are not rodents Ferrets sleep an average of 18-20 hours a day Ferrets are the third most popular pet in the U.S. The name ferret comes from the Latin "furonem" which means "thief" A ferret develops their full personality in about 8 to 10 weeks Baby ferrets open their eyes around 34 days of age All kits are born pink and gain their color at 3 weeks of age A jill can have 1 to 15 kits in a litter Caesar used ferrets for hunting and Aristotle wrote about them Stealing and hiding objects is part of their natural nesting instinct Ferrets are often referred to as nature's clowns A ferrets breeding season is from December to August Male ferrets are called "Hobs" Neutered male ferrets are called "Gibs" Vasectomised males are "Hoblets" Female ferrets are called "Jills" Spayed females are "Sprites" Ferrets less than one year old are called "Kits" A family group of ferrets is a "Business"
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 20:47:14 GMT -5
Plus, the fact that I'm getting most of this from women (both of the fan and personal friend variety) who have told me, in no uncertain terms, that they would LOVE LOVE LOVE to play a game where they could objectify sexy men the way so many games objectify sexy women. How many of them are geeky gamer nerd girls who get all fangirly over Doctor Who and Joss Whedon? They're hardly a representative sample of the general female population. I don't care about ferrets. Please take that "This thread is stupid, let's talk about (wacky irrelevant topic)" shit back to GameFAQs where it belongs. It might have been funny when I was 13. Some opinions are far more proportionally represented by a certain gender, though.
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Post by TheGunheart on Aug 31, 2014 20:50:51 GMT -5
I like how everyone on both sides of the "sexism in gaming" argument refer to each gender as having separate opinions, which is inherently sexist. This thread has become stupid. Let's talk about ferrets. Ferrets, Minks and Weasels belong to the same family Ferrets are not rodents Ferrets sleep an average of 18-20 hours a day Ferrets are the third most popular pet in the U.S. The name ferret comes from the Latin "furonem" which means "thief" A ferret develops their full personality in about 8 to 10 weeks Baby ferrets open their eyes around 34 days of age All kits are born pink and gain their color at 3 weeks of age A jill can have 1 to 15 kits in a litter Caesar used ferrets for hunting and Aristotle wrote about them Stealing and hiding objects is part of their natural nesting instinct Ferrets are often referred to as nature's clowns A ferrets breeding season is from December to August Male ferrets are called "Hobs" Neutered male ferrets are called "Gibs" Vasectomised males are "Hoblets" Female ferrets are called "Jills" Spayed females are "Sprites" Ferrets less than one year old are called "Kits" A family group of ferrets is a "Business" I am TheGunheart, and I approve this message.
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Post by TangoBunny on Aug 31, 2014 20:57:59 GMT -5
Some quick and simple thoughts on this subject, given that I saw a link here: - Yeah, a lot of women gaze at characters in fiction too - Every woman has different tastes - The whole 'theory of the male gaze' thing is a silly concept, fit dudes (and fit women) are hot because they are fit, not because it asserts male dominance or whatever - I would happily play some porn eroge where you play as a woman and all the other characters are dudes
In short, yeah, there's a bunch of women who would love sexy dudes in games, but it's definitely a niche, much like the niche of dudes who like games with anime girls in them.
Source: I have spent the last few days playing strip mahjong games and making animated gifs out of them. Some amounts of gazing was involved.
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Post by thoothan on Aug 31, 2014 20:58:27 GMT -5
Ferrets smell bad
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 21:01:43 GMT -5
- I would happily play some porn eroge where you play as a woman and all the other characters are dudes Interestingly enough, there are few 18+ otome visual novels, and in almost all of them the sex is portrayed as gentle and consensual as possible.
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Post by Feynman on Aug 31, 2014 21:02:11 GMT -5
A family group of ferrets is a "Business" So if one wanted to sell ferrets as pets, they would need a business of ferrets to get into the ferret business.
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Post by wyrdwad on Aug 31, 2014 21:03:53 GMT -5
Plus, the fact that I'm getting most of this from women (both of the fan and personal friend variety) who have told me, in no uncertain terms, that they would LOVE LOVE LOVE to play a game where they could objectify sexy men the way so many games objectify sexy women. How many of them are geeky gamer nerd girls who get all fangirly over Doctor Who and Joss Whedon? They're hardly a representative sample of the general female population. That would be pretty much all of them, yes. But to be fair, I am mostly making points about the video game industry here, so most of what I'm saying is meant to apply to the kind of person who would buy the kinds of video games we talk about on this forum. Which, I'm willing to bet, would include a female demographic largely consisting of "nerd girls who get all fangirly over Doctor Who and Joss Whedon." So my point very much stands, in the context of this particular discussion. -Tom
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Post by alphex on Aug 31, 2014 21:08:57 GMT -5
women are culturally taught that they're more desirable if they remain pure and chaste, so they fight their urges a lot more than men do (at least publicly!). I believe the urges themselves are the same, however, and that there is no reason women can't lust after male characters in fiction (and I believe they do) just as much as men lust after female characters in fiction. Holy shit, you've just become the fusion of a neckbeard sexist and a third wave Tumblr feminist. Did your hair turn blonde and suddenly get all huge and spikey?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2014 21:12:41 GMT -5
So this thread is going to get locked. Great work, everyone.
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