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Post by Allie on Mar 23, 2015 12:05:00 GMT -5
It has a batshit story, the too many characters thing is a negative because so many of them are useless fluff. It also is a major step back in how battles seamlessly transitioned in CT, and in CC require a seperate screen. The Double and triple techs feel much more sparse as well. The only real compliments I have for CC are that it sounds and looks great. This sums up how I feel about the game, as well. Chrono Trigger had a small cast that provided a sense of camaraderie, while allowing you to explore each person's backstory. Chrono Cross just throws a bunch of random anime tropes at the wall, assigns them an arbitrary elemental color, and hopes some of it will stick. I would really, really love to know what the development process for that game was like. It's a quintessential example of how Japanese games often end up directionless. Well, that and FFXIII. CC isn't THAT bad, by comparison. CC's would be an especially interesting ordeal to hear about, since it was their second attempt at trying to tell that story (Radical Dreamers being the one previous).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2015 15:24:03 GMT -5
With an entirely different team the second time around, wasn't it? Definitely going to lose some of the focus in a situation like that.
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Post by Joseph Joestar on Mar 24, 2015 9:48:10 GMT -5
The character designs in CC were really scary/off-putting to me for some reason, I think that's part of the reason I didn't get into it as much.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Mar 24, 2015 12:35:21 GMT -5
Chrono Cross will always stick in my mind as that one game I was unable to finish. Because I could beat expy Lavos or whatever, the right way even, and then my disc would freeze at about halfway through the ending cinematic.
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Post by personman on Mar 26, 2015 1:27:50 GMT -5
Jokes aside, Okami is the best legend of zelda game ever, seriously, I say just about the same exact thing for the first Darksiders. I'm usually not so passionate about things that I feel I must defend anything. However one thing that has started to get me to speak now and then is alot of the condemnation Bethesda games tend to get. Or atleast the ones that don't happen to be Morrowind. Thing is I tottally understand why people would dislike them, people call them shallow and honestly they are, people call them boring and generic and on a surface level I can tottally see how one would think that. (However on that last note if you go and read up on the lore however you'll find the series is actually pretty batshit insane even for fantasy and I find it rather interesting how the main theme of the series is actually not good vs. evil but instead stasis vs. change) My problem is I keep running into people who love to proclaim the Elder scrolls series (and Fallout 3) are part of the 'cancer killing gaming' (I really fucking hate that term) and that the games are so inferior to other action games or rpgs. Most often complaint I hear today "Oh the combat in Elder Scrolls is so terrible compared to X-action game!" or "The character building in Elder Scrolls is so shallow compared to X-rpg!" You know what? You are probably completely correct. You know what else? Its pretty clear to me the games are not designed with the intent to mimic either of those games. Honestly I barely consider Oblivion, Skyrim, or Fallout 3 rpgs or action games. Hell one of my favorite games ever: Fallout New Vegas I consider an rpg but only just barely. To me they are simply sandboxes, they aren't meant to be hyper deep and super hard or whatever but instead are just big playgrounds to goof around in and chill out. They aren't perfect by any means and I'd definately encourage whoever is in charge of creative development to really up the ante on writing and art direction in order to make these sandboxes more compelling to explore (something I feel Skyrim made good strides toward even if it misses the mark in the end) but for that purpose alone I think they serve just fine. Is it really such a crime that any game involing experience gathering or hitting things with a blunt object might not be the most complex and nerve racking experience ever? If you want those things so badly then I perfectly understand why you'd find little to like in these types of games I would definately not reccomend them to everyone. But are they really the worst things ever? Come now. I guess I've just gotten touchy about it since I spent an entire year living with a friend who would outright antagonize me for playing Skyrim. Or maybe I just need to finally get around to buying Morrowind, falling in line and start hating everything else forever. I don't know.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Mar 26, 2015 13:30:29 GMT -5
The problem is that Elder Scrolls and Fallout used to be deep complex games. With numbers and minutia out the ass. And well if you're going to make more, dumbing things down isn't what you should do. And let's be fair that's what they've done since Morrowind. Daggerfall really, but excising skills and then removing racial benefits is just silly.
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Post by susanismyalias on Mar 26, 2015 13:47:55 GMT -5
It's also a problem that in the case of oblivion and skyrim to morrowind, and with fallout 3 to its previous games, the writing and world creation is significantly dumbed down.
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yause
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Post by yause on Mar 26, 2015 23:48:45 GMT -5
This sums up how I feel about the game, as well. Chrono Trigger had a small cast that provided a sense of camaraderie, while allowing you to explore each person's backstory. Chrono Cross just throws a bunch of random anime tropes at the wall, assigns them an arbitrary elemental color, and hopes some of it will stick. I would really, really love to know what the development process for that game was like. It's a quintessential example of how Japanese games often end up directionless. Well, that and FFXIII. CC isn't THAT bad, by comparison. CC's would be an especially interesting ordeal to hear about, since it was their second attempt at trying to tell that story (Radical Dreamers being the one previous). You can get some idea from developer interviews, particular ones with Yasunori Mitsuda and Masato Kato. Basically, they were unhappy with how Trigger progressed, citing such grievances as "silly limitations" imposed by leadership, as well as meddling from senior developers who rewrote scripts and changed content against their wishes. Chrono Cross was an extreme reaction - Kato gave each team member free reign over a small portion of the game, each bit untouched by anyone else. BTW, different political factions emerged from the Chrono series. Mitsuda backs Masato Kato as the series mastermind and says that he won't work on a sequel without him. However, Yuji Horii probably believes otherwise, having actually leveraged ownership rights to the scenario 13 years after the fact (which finally paved the way for post-merger ports and rereleases). Meanwhile, Kazuhiko Aoki may have been planning to do a new Chrono with Sakaguchi's backing.
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Post by personman on Mar 26, 2015 23:56:22 GMT -5
I guess I really just need to get around to playing Morrowind and seeing what all the fuss is about. I've only ever played the 'dumbed down' games so I don't see the reason to be upset. People went on about how dumbed down Skyrim was from Oblivion which I just find silly, there wasn't much of anything complex to building a character in Oblivion, just find the two most important stats for the combat style you like (Intelligence and Willpower for magic Strength and Stamina for melee, Agility and Speed for Ranged, the end) and use your third point for Luck, that's it. Just comes off to me like theres less oppurtunity for people to be elitist or brag about how smart they are for gaming some stupid system. Seriously why are people so damn competitve about single players games? I don't get it. Personally though the simple fact that the older games may have been more complicated doesen't neccesarily mean they are better to me. I really hate complication for its own sake which I feel is a trap alot of older western rpgs fall into, that's the primary reason I have a hard time getting into most things involving D&D. If it makes sense then great but if there's like 800 different things to account for why you missed something I just start to get overwhelmed and annoyed. but excising skills and then removing racial benefits is just silly. I'm a little confused by that one, did races have more powers in Daggerfall and Morrowind or something? Becasue racial powers are still present in Skyrim. Granted none of them are that great but still. Never really got the removal of skills point either, acrobatics and athletics were not fun to level at all and barely did anything for you and Mysticism was useful for like, one spell: Soul Trap (which 99 percent of people just used an item for). I can understand the removal of unarmed upsetting some people but that's it.
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Post by Allie on Mar 27, 2015 5:26:01 GMT -5
Morrowind made a bad first impression on me (Constant crashes early on, almost every single attack misses at the beginning of the game...) in ways that Oblivion and Skyrim didn't.
I didn't play Arena or Daggerfall growing up, though, so I didn't really come into it with any expectations based on how stats and such were implemented.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Mar 27, 2015 10:41:03 GMT -5
I guess I really just need to get around to playing Morrowind and seeing what all the fuss is about. I've only ever played the 'dumbed down' games so I don't see the reason to be upset. People went on about how dumbed down Skyrim was from Oblivion which I just find silly, there wasn't much of anything complex to building a character in Oblivion, just find the two most important stats for the combat style you like (Intelligence and Willpower for magic Strength and Stamina for melee, Agility and Speed for Ranged, the end) and use your third point for Luck, that's it. Just comes off to me like theres less oppurtunity for people to be elitist or brag about how smart they are for gaming some stupid system. Seriously why are people so damn competitve about single players games? I don't get it. Personally though the simple fact that the older games may have been more complicated doesen't neccesarily mean they are better to me. I really hate complication for its own sake which I feel is a trap alot of older western rpgs fall into, that's the primary reason I have a hard time getting into most things involving D&D. If it makes sense then great but if there's like 800 different things to account for why you missed something I just start to get overwhelmed and annoyed. but excising skills and then removing racial benefits is just silly. I'm a little confused by that one, did races have more powers in Daggerfall and Morrowind or something? Becasue racial powers are still present in Skyrim. Granted none of them are that great but still. Never really got the removal of skills point either, acrobatics and athletics were not fun to level at all and barely did anything for you and Mysticism was useful for like, one spell: Soul Trap (which 99 percent of people just used an item for). I can understand the removal of unarmed upsetting some people but that's it. I'm sorry I was a bit confused. It's been a bit since I've played it. They got rid of attributes. So races don't have those anymore. And considering any character can get any skill up to 100. All that's really unique is the little spell thing they all get. It's kind of like Final Fantasy X. When all the cards are on the table the only thing that defines the characters are there Overlimits. And as for the skills. I've always kind of thought of Elder Scrolls as a fantasy simulation. It's not a very good one, but not many other games even come close to the true idea of roleplaying that Elder Scrolls does. I don't like being limited in what I can do. If I want to get really good and become an acrobatic, I should be able to. I got to in D&D. What makes Elder Scrolls think it's better than D&D?
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Post by Bobinator on Mar 27, 2015 13:39:58 GMT -5
I think people who started the Elder Scrolls with Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim should try Arena. Not because it's not an especially great game, especially nowadays, but how different it is compared to the rest of the games.
I mean, sure, you start the game off in prison, so that's nothing new. But that's because the very first thing the game tells you is that there's an evil wizard who warped the Emperor into another dimension. He doesn't show up later on or anything, he's just there. All the time. I just think it's hilarious how after so many of the later games focus on you just being some guy who has to wander out and eventually find out what's going on, getting "HERE IS AN EVIL WIZARD. MURDER HIM." is just so... blunt.
What I also think is hilarious is when you die. From Morrowind and onward, when you die, the game just kind of brushes it off and loads your save game like it never happened. In Arena? Once you get to a certain point, you get this:
Kinda harsh.
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Post by cambertian on Mar 27, 2015 14:26:02 GMT -5
All this talk of Elder Scrolls makes me want to play one of the earlier ones. After seeing my brother and his friends play Skyrim, I wanted to punch the TV out of its misery. However, I am a big fan of obtuse dungeon crawlers, and watching LGR talk about the roots of the series has my interest piqued slightly.
So... Which one? Daggerfall? Arena? ... King's Field?
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Post by The Great Klaid on Mar 27, 2015 18:09:26 GMT -5
Daggerfall. Like Bobinator said Arena's different and he's right. It's also not very good. Daggerfall has the ability to turn on mouselook and works with it. So it's fantastic. It's also freeware nowadays which would have been awesome to know before I plunked down however much money on that Anthology.
Oh and for the record that Game Over in Arena changes after you get the first part of the staff.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2015 19:39:13 GMT -5
I really hate turn on mouselook. It's what makes the games before Skyrim nearly impossible for me to play on PC. Just add controller support, for god's sake!
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