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Post by Bobinator on Dec 20, 2014 23:28:02 GMT -5
I admit that maybe I might not have given it enough of a chance, but when I played Baldur's Gate, I got utterly wrecked at the Friendly Arm Inn, the first real fight of the game, and that kind of killed my drive to continue right there. I mean, I admit that I might need to spend more time with it, that could be the issue. I never said I was great at JRPGs.
...For reference, though, I never had that much trouble with Knights of the Old Republic, although I never got particularly far in that, either.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Dec 21, 2014 0:08:17 GMT -5
I admit that maybe I might not have given it enough of a chance, but when I played Baldur's Gate, I got utterly wrecked at the Friendly Arm Inn, the first real fight of the game, and that kind of killed my drive to continue right there. I mean, I admit that I might need to spend more time with it, that could be the issue. I never said I was great at JRPGs. ...For reference, though, I never had that much trouble with Knights of the Old Republic, although I never got particularly far in that, either. To be fair, I know what I'm doing in those games and that fight can be a bit of a bugbear. Magic in D&D is at it's most powerful when it's being used as a buff. And he has buffs out the ass. Also, KotR uses modified 3e rules, those are pretty simple compared to 2e, which infinity engine games use. And, really a tutorial would be really stupid. D&D's pretty simple once you get past the mess of numbers. And as long as you know it rolls physical dice, well not physical I guess, but you get the idea. Well, that and you have to understand it's not like most video games. A lot of the rules are to build worlds, so unlike a to of games, the AI follows the same rules. What I'm getting at is that there aren't mechanics to teach. The game runs on charts.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 0:19:39 GMT -5
It all makes sense once you understand what everything means, but I don't see why it would be a sin to give an (optional) tutorial to people who never played a pen and paper RPG before.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Dec 21, 2014 0:28:57 GMT -5
Because it would be a digital manual?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 0:30:52 GMT -5
Or they could have introductory fight scenes that explain "to hit", AC, etc.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Dec 21, 2014 0:39:07 GMT -5
Which raises a question. Why is it only in tabletop conversions people care? I mean I never see anyone up in arms because DA:I doesn't explain how its numbers work. All D&D does differently is it shows you the numbers. And some people understand those numbers. A tutorial would just be the game saying AC is the chance someone will hit you. A bonus to hit is a 5% increase to hit.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 0:40:35 GMT -5
Because other RPGs don't require the player to understand their alien language to succeed in combat. Higher numbers = success.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Dec 21, 2014 0:49:30 GMT -5
The only time thars not true is AC. And that's pretty easy to figure out when you have 10AC naked, and 2AC fully armored. Dexterity could be tricky, but I'd have to go back and look, because I think the infinity engine games are the only ones that don't immediately illustrate the correlation between attributes and derived stats. Well and weapons use XdX. That I'll grant is the worst thing to translate into when people are used to things like attack power. But, it does rather plainly state the formula for damage. But, I know how much better 2d4 is compared to 1d8. As opposed to 10 to 15.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 0:53:38 GMT -5
Exactly. Players, especially casual gamers, have no clue nor any desire to know how any of that works. They just want to play. D&D doesn't usually extend the olive branch, though.
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Post by Feynman on Dec 21, 2014 1:01:52 GMT -5
What are they going to do for a tutorial? Pop up a text box that tells you what Thac0 means and how to calculate your hit chance? Pop up a chart of saving throw progression by class? Open a window explaining that humans can only dual-class, and other races can only multi-class, and what the difference is? This is all stuff that is much easier and more efficient to communicate via text and charts than via a hands-on tutorial. Which is what manuals are for. I mean, having an in-game reference guide for that kind of thing would work... but that's basically just a digital manual in the end.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Dec 21, 2014 1:08:16 GMT -5
But it's all charts. If you really want to know how it works, you look at the charts. That's what a tutorial would boil down to. D&D is nothing but a series of charts. They have to know nothing. It's got a different feel because it isn't just constantly increasing numbers. That's where the hang ups lie. You can't grind in D&D. It's more knowing your options.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 1:14:00 GMT -5
I think you're all thinking too literally about it. You have an introductory battle where it stop at certain points to explain what the numbers mean. It really doesn't have to get into all of it right then and there, the rest can be handled in additional, optional tutorials that the player uses at their own choice later.
"Click on your enemy to attack!" Player clicks on enemy. He hits a few times. Action stops to point out the enemy's AC and your character's To Hit. "The lower this is, the harder you are to hit! The higher this is, the better your chance of hitting an enemy!"
Etc, etc, for all of the more basic functions of combat. It truly doesn't need to get as complex as you guys are making it out to be.
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Post by Weasel on Dec 21, 2014 1:17:38 GMT -5
My problem with the earlier D&D games is the requirement to invest yourself in several options without really knowing what they'll entail. It's entirely possible to create a character who is utterly gimped, especially if you've created a magic-casting class and not fully understood what the spells actually do, or which statistics your class needs, or what your Alignment actually affects, or if you picked a junk Feat or specialized in a weapon that just isn't available.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Dec 21, 2014 1:19:10 GMT -5
Well, I guess if that really helped people.
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Post by 1upsuper on Dec 21, 2014 1:23:27 GMT -5
It's Obsidian! ;p Lots of people who worked on those games are actually working on Pillars of Eternity. Also, what has been shown almost guarantees it will be as great, if not even greater than those classic titles. 1upsuper > Be sure to check these games out. EDIT: Oh, and Divinity: Original Sin is also highly recommended, a game which I am currently playing. What's the best version of BG? I see GoG has an old and pricier new version, and I think there's some version on iOS?
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