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Post by The Great Klaid on Dec 21, 2014 1:25:13 GMT -5
My problem with the earlier D&D games is the requirement to invest yourself in several options without really knowing what they'll entail. It's entirely possible to create a character who is utterly gimped, especially if you've created a magic-casting class and not fully understood what the spells actually do, or which statistics your class needs, or what your Alignment actually affects, or if you picked a junk Feat or specialized in a weapon that just isn't available. Well you're getting too much into later D&D with Feats and specializations. But, the video games do have that nasty habit where it gives all the options the books do, but aren't in the game. Like the ride skill in NWN. There is never anything that can be riden outside of user generated content. Or the restraints of a computer setting messing with charming enemies. Because you can't give them precise commands. But, they were rules written to give guidelines to boundless imagination, further tied down by programming. 1upsuper the EE edition is the most updated, and put into line with the sequel, which is just bigger, and it adds new content on top. The GOG is what was released 15 years ago. I can vouch for that version as 15 years ago it was all I played. The EE version, I haven't played enough to know about any bugs or if the new content is all that great. But what little I did seemed good.
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Post by Terrifying on Dec 21, 2014 1:37:01 GMT -5
It's Obsidian! ;p Lots of people who worked on those games are actually working on Pillars of Eternity. Also, what has been shown almost guarantees it will be as great, if not even greater than those classic titles. 1upsuper > Be sure to check these games out. EDIT: Oh, and Divinity: Original Sin is also highly recommended, a game which I am currently playing. What's the best version of BG? I see GoG has an old and pricier new version, and I think there's some version on iOS? On GOG there are two versions; Original Saga and Enhanced Edition. The former contains lots of extras like the original soundtrack. But it doesn't have native widescreen support, so you'll have to adjust the game with some mods made by the community if you'll want that. Plus there are quite a number of bugs left, which are also fixed by community patches. The Enhanced Edition has native widescreen support and is practically bug-free. It doesn't have a lot of extras however. I personally would recommend the latter; what is needed is one simple installation. If you really want the extras, and don't mind patching the game go for the Original Saga one.
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Post by derboo on Dec 21, 2014 1:37:49 GMT -5
Exactly. Players, especially casual gamers, have no clue nor any desire to know how any of that works. They just want to play. D&D doesn't usually extend the olive branch, though. It's a game that just requires a minimal amount of tactical effort, and it's constructed in a way that requires a bit of reading in order to play well. Slicing the rules into tutorials could only relocate the inevitable text content and quite possibly bloat the beginning of the game into insufferable tedium. People who "just want to play" and hate looking at charts and thinking about numbers maybe... just should consider Baldur's Gate may be not the best choice for them. Demanding to be able to play Baldur's Gate without knowing "how any of that works" sounds a bit like criticizing a book for all those pesky letters when some people just want to watch a movie. All that said, understanding that Baldur's Gate is in essence still a turn/phase based game that simply doesn't halt to prompt player input for each action (by default, at least) and using the pause feature accordingly is much more important than learning any D&D rules (aside from "buffs are important").
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Post by 1upsuper on Dec 21, 2014 1:38:44 GMT -5
Thanks for the info. Sounds like I'll probably go with the EE version. Sorry to add another question, but can anyone vouch for the mobile/tablet version? It's half the price of the Windows version from what I can tell, and it'd be more convenient to play right now during the Holidays. But if the controls are really bad I'll go with desktop.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 1:51:13 GMT -5
It's a game that just requires a minimal amount of tactical effort, and it's constructed in a way that requires a bit of reading in order to play well. Slicing the rules into tutorials could only relocate the inevitable text content and quite possibly bloat the beginning of the game into insufferable tedium. People who "just want to play" and hate looking at charts and thinking about numbers maybe... just should consider Baldur's Gate may be not the best choice for them. Demanding to be able to play Baldur's Gate without knowing "how any of that works" sounds a bit like criticizing a book for all those pesky letters when some people just want to watch a movie. All that said, understanding that Baldur's Gate is in essence still a turn/phase based game that simply doesn't halt to prompt player input for each action (by default, at least) and using the pause feature accordingly is much more important than learning any D&D rules (aside from "buffs are important"). I'd call it elitism and wanting to keep those pesky, boorish casuals out of the clubhouse. Nothing gets hurt by making things more accessible to a wider audience, especially if those concessions are wholly optional.
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Post by Terrifying on Dec 21, 2014 2:08:09 GMT -5
I'd call it elitism and wanting to keep those pesky, boorish casuals out of the clubhouse. Nothing gets hurt by making things more accessible to a wider audience, especially if those concessions are wholly optional. No way. This is exactly the reason why there aren't many complex games today. Accessibility is what lies at the roots of modern gaming, and I don't like it. It's the reason why I am 100% through with console gaming. If people are not willing to spend some time on something, that's OK, but they shouldn't ruin the hobby of a dedicated audience who are willing to do that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 2:14:27 GMT -5
How do optional tutorials ruin anything?
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Post by Weasel on Dec 21, 2014 2:22:58 GMT -5
How do optional tutorials ruin anything? A tutorial here, a tool tip there, maybe a glossary in the game somewhere if the player needs help understanding things. There is little excuse, in my opinion, for not at least making some concession to the new player.
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Post by caoslayer on Dec 21, 2014 3:23:41 GMT -5
The ironic thing of all this is that BG is the most accesible, better looking and fast paced D&D rpg of its age by far it set the bar for crpg and raised it becoming the game to clone for your rpg to the point that people is still emulating the formula. This is the super mario bros of crpgs like FF7 dragon quest is of japanese rpgs.
About the pause feature, it is totally optional since you can configure several AI options for your companions so you only have to worry about the character you are handling to the point that I usually only had to pause when I had to queue a barrage of spells in sequence to defeat BG2 mages who liked to use several defensive spells and you had to knock them down before he had a chance to lay death on you...
And that bring me the thing I liked the most from BG2, the spell selection was huge, about 300 spells with little clones, every spell felt diferent with an use.
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Post by derboo on Dec 21, 2014 5:06:48 GMT -5
I'd call it elitism and wanting to keep those pesky, boorish casuals out of the clubhouse. No, it's acknowledging the probabilty that they probably won't have much fun in the clubhouse either way. The average player who has no desire to "know how any of that works" won't suddenly get interested in the dynamics if you interrupt the flow of the experience to drop the necessary text info in the middle of it. If you don't want to learn how the game works, you don't need tutorials, you need a godmode cheat. I'm not saying that there should be no (optional!) tutorials, all I'm saying is that they don't circumvent the need to read a manual. All they can do is put the manual in portions in between the game. If players are not in the mindset of being ready to read a bit of technical stuff, most of them are gonna skip them the same way they're skipping the manual.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2014 5:37:11 GMT -5
Well the nature of an optional tutorial is that someone is looking at it specifically because they want to learn. I say that hurts nothing.
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Post by Feynman on Dec 21, 2014 9:16:59 GMT -5
What's the best version of BG? I see GoG has an old and pricier new version, and I think there's some version on iOS? On GOG there are two versions; Original Saga and Enhanced Edition. The former contains lots of extras like the original soundtrack. But it doesn't have native widescreen support, so you'll have to adjust the game with some mods made by the community if you'll want that. Plus there are quite a number of bugs left, which are also fixed by community patches. The Enhanced Edition has native widescreen support and is practically bug-free. It doesn't have a lot of extras however. I personally would recommend the latter; what is needed is one simple installation. If you really want the extras, and don't mind patching the game go for the Original Saga one. The Enhanced Edition of Baldur's Gate 1 is okay, and Icewind Dale Enhanced is solid. The Baldur's Gate 2 Enhanced Edition, not so much. Last I checked a month or two ago, was still a buggy nightmare that breaks more things than it "enhances." Until they fix BG2 Enhanced, it's worth just getting the old versions and patching them with a widescreen mod and with the Baldur's Gate Trilogy mod that basically adds everything in the Enhanced Editions minus the half-assed shitty new NPCs. It's cheaper, significantly less buggy, and just as good, as long as you're willing to apply a few fan patches.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Dec 21, 2014 10:40:40 GMT -5
How do optional tutorials ruin anything? A tutorial here, a tool tip there, maybe a glossary in the game somewhere if the player needs help understanding things. There is little excuse, in my opinion, for not at least making some concession to the new player. Aha! Tool tips! That's really what would work best. But, I'm still going to maintain the best thing a tutorial can do is stop and say, seriously read the manual. There isn't a lot of stuff you need to know, but if you want to know it, it's right there. We can give a glossary, and you can get the gist of it all, but if you really want to know, it's all in the manual. And actually, lest we all forget. Baldur's Gate was on 5 CDs. That you swapped. NWN was too, but no swapping. The Gold Box games had parts of the text in the manual. And we haven't had a real D&D game in like a decade. Space was kind of limited. And now I wonder if manuals aren't a small part of why we haven't seen a game in forever.
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Post by Terrifying on Jan 5, 2015 6:50:26 GMT -5
For those interested in a retail copy of Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition, there is now one available by courtesy of Deep Silver. Completely DRM-free according to Koch Media. I think I might get a additional, physical copy...
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