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Post by alphex on Aug 1, 2015 7:28:03 GMT -5
"When it's done" is the norm in Japanese development. In the west, gamers once marveled at the policies of 3D Realms or Valve as some kind of rarity, but it's the name of the game in Japan. Just staying within the same franchise, Mega Man 2 and 7 were completed in three months. I'm not saying that 3 months is a realistic timeframe any more, however, deadlines are anything but unknown. Also, you are aware of Marvel vs Capcom 3 and its NEED for deadlines to be met? But since the Red Ash Kickstarter will be over soon, I guess we'll soon find out whether MN9 really has been pushed back or not.
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Post by Pixel_Crusher on Aug 1, 2015 8:32:37 GMT -5
Just calling it like he sees it there, though. It's absolutely true. J-Dev is up Shit Creek without a paddle. To be honest, we still have j-devs that produce top-quality stuff even today. Nintendo, Falcom, Bamco (Tales), Atlus and Sega (Yakuza).
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yause
Junior Member
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Post by yause on Aug 1, 2015 13:25:03 GMT -5
"When it's done" is the norm in Japanese development. In the west, gamers once marveled at the policies of 3D Realms or Valve as some kind of rarity, but it's the name of the game in Japan. Just staying within the same franchise, Mega Man 2 and 7 were completed in three months. I'm not saying that 3 months is a realistic timeframe any more, however, deadlines are anything but unknown. Also, you are aware of Marvel vs Capcom 3 and its NEED for deadlines to be met? But since the Red Ash Kickstarter will be over soon, I guess we'll soon find out whether MN9 really has been pushed back or not. I'm thinking more in the way of process. While hard deadlines are certainly enforced, a clear roadmap toward completion (with established goals, each task for each person outlined with deadlines and specific requirements for completion, ways of immediately tracking what has slipped, etc.) from the planning stage is a relatively new concept. The idea is that you have the entire product mapped out from early on, and the rest of production is a process around meeting those requirements. At every stage, the team knows how each piece is progressing, which allows then to respond readily to unexpected difficulties or to work in feasible requirement changes. I mean, even in the west, "when it's done" didn't necessarily mean unlimited development time. Quake was capped off after 18 months by dropping what they couldn't do in time, and the same is true for many Japanese games (i.e. FFXIII had its guts ripped out to meet a 2009 timeframe). Nevertheless, the loose approach means that concepts aren't nailed down from the start and are allowed to evolve or totally change as development progresses. This is the artisan's approach of organically shaping and refining the concept as one builds. At some point, everything clicks after enough building and tinkering (i.e. the FFXIII demo), but a precise blueprint isn't nailed down from the start. There are also no milestones to ensure that everything is moving as planned, hence the problems with feature creep, obsolete work (people making of a lot of stuff and then having to throw it out because of a major design or game engine change), idle staff, and long delays that emerged as the scale of development grew.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2015 13:49:07 GMT -5
Oh, please. Like high-profile Western studios are doing much better---look at the XBone's initial feature announcement, look at AssCreed: Unity, look at Steam Greenlight, look at Aliens: Colonial Marines, look at the Skyrim paid mods fiasco. This is just Inafune being an arrogant cockbite and not being able to see past the end of his own nose like so many other developers on both sides of the Pacific, riding the Kickstarter fad with a couple of other auteurs. Did you miss the entire last generation of hardware? Capcom. Sega. Konami. Square. All of the traditional major players of Japanese development have fallen flat on their faces. The usual method of "dick around for 2-3 years until something comes together" just doesn't work anymore.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Aug 1, 2015 14:00:52 GMT -5
Just staying within the same franchise, Mega Man 2 and 7 were completed in three months. I'm not saying that 3 months is a realistic timeframe any more, however, deadlines are anything but unknown. Also, you are aware of Marvel vs Capcom 3 and its NEED for deadlines to be met? But since the Red Ash Kickstarter will be over soon, I guess we'll soon find out whether MN9 really has been pushed back or not. I'm thinking more in the way of process. While hard deadlines are certainly enforced, a clear roadmap toward completion (with established goals, each task for each person outlined with deadlines and specific requirements for completion, ways of immediately tracking what has slipped, etc.) from the planning stage is a relatively new concept. The idea is that you have the entire product mapped out from early on, and the rest of production is a process around meeting those requirements. At every stage, the team knows how each piece is progressing, which allows then to respond readily to unexpected difficulties or to work in feasible requirement changes. I mean, even in the west, "when it's done" didn't necessarily mean unlimited development time. Quake was capped off after 18 months by dropping what they couldn't do in time, and the same is true for many Japanese games (i.e. FFXIII had its guts ripped out to meet a 2009 timeframe). Nevertheless, the loose approach means that concepts aren't nailed down from the start and are allowed to evolve or totally change as development progresses. This is the artisan's approach of organically shaping and refining the concept as one builds. At some point, everything clicks after enough building and tinkering (i.e. the FFXIII demo), but a precise blueprint isn't nailed down from the start. There are also no milestones to ensure that everything is moving as planned, hence the problems with feature creep, obsolete work (people making of a lot of stuff and then having to throw it out because of a major design or game engine change), idle staff, and long delays that emerged as the scale of development grew. Wait I never knew that about FFXIII. It makes sense though considering how quickly it seemed to come out after XII. And that XII was a mess. And really XIII's biggest sin was that it just felt like there was nothing to it. Especially after how big XII was. God, that makes far too much sense.
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Post by X-pert74 on Aug 3, 2015 2:23:54 GMT -5
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Post by Scylla on Aug 3, 2015 20:54:31 GMT -5
Well, the Red Ash Kickstarter campaigns are over, and the anime actually managed to get funded. The campaign for the game obviously didn't reach its goal, but who gives a shit since it got outside funding anyway.
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Post by Cash Master on Aug 3, 2015 22:48:34 GMT -5
So did they actually get to keep the money from the Kickstarter? The page doesn't say it was refunded or anything!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2015 22:50:39 GMT -5
Kickstarters do not collect money unless they reach their funding goal. It's always been this way.
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Post by Weasel on Aug 3, 2015 22:51:04 GMT -5
So did they actually get to keep the money from the Kickstarter? The page doesn't say it was refunded or anything! It's all part of how Kickstarter works: if they have not reached their funding goal, nobody is charged any money. Money doesn't even change hands unless they reach the goal.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2015 1:34:19 GMT -5
You guys sure in this case? I thought the backer money was going towards stretch goals.
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Post by Scylla on Aug 4, 2015 3:59:48 GMT -5
The first stretch goal (not funded by Fuze) was priced at the goal amount, so they didn't meet any Kickstarter-funded stretch goals.
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Post by shelverton on Aug 4, 2015 9:34:51 GMT -5
You guys sure in this case? I thought the backer money was going towards stretch goals. They completely failed to communicate/explain things throughout the entire kickstarter, so I'm not surprised people were confused about this. The money would only have gone towards stretch goals IF it reached 800 000+. I still fail to fully understand what that's supposed to mean. How is it any different from how it would've been without Fuze? Money always go towards stretch goals... I'm guessing what they're saying is: "We already have all the money we need to make the game, so your money will go to all the extras. Though the first 799 999 doesn't count so it's only at 800 000 that your money will start going towards the additional stretchgoals!" ? EDIT: I looked at the stretch goals again and at 800 000 we would've gotten three things: Challenge Dungeon, Tyger playable and Village Reconstruction. I'm guessing those three things would've cost comcept 800 000 to add to the game, or else it's such a scam...
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Post by Scylla on Aug 4, 2015 13:26:43 GMT -5
Yes, they were presenting it as those three additional things would've cost $800,000, which does sound like BS, considering they were originally going to make the entire game for the same amount (albeit the minimum version of it).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 5:53:26 GMT -5
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