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Post by alphex on Mar 10, 2016 21:01:48 GMT -5
Woah, I just noticed that my suggestions and/or notes are in the article I'd assumed you would mention the spinning kick in the passage about the crop field (since it seems the combine harvester only be dogded by using that move), but either way, cool of you to actually take it all into consideration (One thing I'm not sure whether it's in the article - if it is, I didn't quite catch it: Unlike Final Fight and the Konami games, the first two Double Dragon games are heavy on environmental hazards, but they can also damage the enemies, which only contributed to make the gameplay of the series feel more calculated and less mayhem-happy than the one of its flashier competitors. A lack of this definitely hurt the SNES installment, but greatly helped the original games to stand out and lend some tactical edge to the combat.) Technos' unwillingness to commit to the series either being a Fist of the North Star wannabe or a Warriors wannabe or a Saint Seiya wannabe (I still can't believe the endgame of arcade Double Dragon III is real, it's so far away from anything else in the franchise) contributes a lot to how unfocused the later games are. The games didn't have the time or budget put into them to encompass it all in a good way so it feels slapped together and unfocused. Some people say the games are like The Warriors in the US and like Fist of the North Star in Japan but I don't think that really does justice to how muddled they are in general. Safe for the artwork of some of the games, I don't see much FOTNS in the games, and with the exception of the second Game Boy game, not much The Warriors, either. Renegade, sure, that's Technos' take on The Warriors, but Double Dragon was its own thing. Sadly, as you mentioned, Technos didn't quite know just what that was - artwork, sequels and remakes all had very different interpretations. And honestly, despite the fact how often they were remade - only stage 1 of the original arcade release felt all that iconic to me. I'd always felt the woods were a pretty boring stage (part 2's field is easily more exciting and, with its surreal colours, the one stage I associate the most with its Arcade incarnation), and the final level was just bullshit plaza. Part 2 on the NES has probably the coolest set of environments overall, but suffers from shitty platforming elements and hardware limitations regarding onscreen enemies. I actually feel, despite the whole "all stages are connected with simple scrolling"-gimmick that both Final Fight 1 and Streets Of Rage 1 had more interesting environments (SAFE FOR THE FIRST ONE!), especially as far as sense of progression through the city is concerned. In fact, only two stages of DD take place in an urban environment! Also, I just checked: Longplays without slowdown on Youtube are about 25 minutes, those with slowdown about 35 minutes long. That's fucking immense of a difference.
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Post by Discoalucard on Mar 11, 2016 0:16:07 GMT -5
To be fair though, isn't complaining about how something runs on 30fps on a SNES a bit counterintuitive considering how bad the system clock was in the first place? Not really, it runs at 30 FPS literally the entire time. Like the SNES hardware had issues with slowdown during its early days but that was just in parts of the game, when there wasn't any tough action it ran smoothly. ROTD is literally "the game runs at half the proper framerate but at the same speed". It makes it feel really choppy. For reference as how this might have come about, there was a Retro Gamer article about Sonic Spinball, and how it was programmed in approximately 3 months. Due to these time constraints, it had to be programmed in C rather than assembly. That was incredibly inefficient and the reason why the game runs at 30 FPS. It was probably something similar with ROTD.
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Post by 1983parrothead on Mar 11, 2016 7:06:27 GMT -5
Here are some trivia that might be useful.
Ever since the 80s or perhaps earlier, Japan is fascinated by Australia. Koala animes were made while Mad Max was influential. And Data East's Wolf Fang takes place in Australia while Taito developed The New Zealand Story.
I am quite sure the plot and setting themes in the earlier games were modeled mostly after Fist of the North Star, which Kenshiro also pays tribute to Bruce Lee in a post-apocalyptic Mad Max-style setting. Even Yoshihisa Kishimoto's Road Blaster was also modeled after Mad Max and Fist of the North Star while animated by Toei Animation, the same studio that animated Fist of the North Star.
Although Road Blaster was actually made by Data East, Technos Japan was composed of former Data East employees. DECO and Technos Japan's Karate Champ also had elements later used in the Kunio-kun and Double Dragon franchises, such as punching and kicking in multiple directions. In DDII arcade, the helicopter at the beginning of the first stage was mostly likely based on Yoshihisa Kishimoto's Thunder Storm FMV arcade, which was confusingly released overseas as Cobra Command, ntbcw Data East's other Cobra Command arcade.
Double Dragon III arcade was developed by East Technology instead of Technos Japan probably because Technos was probably more focused on the Kunio-kun franchise than Double Dragon. East Technology, like Technos Japan, was another developer under the Taito umbrella. Most Americans hate DDIII without realizing that the Japanese version is the better version. American gamers were like apeshit over the Double Dragon franchise, but in Japan, gamers there were most likely as calm as Daigo Umehara. Return of Double Dragon is another example in the franchise that seems better in Japan than overseas.
Technos Japan was kind of small back then. Therefore, they didn't have enough time, money nor effort to give to the Double Dragon franchise, causing the original creators to not work on from DDIII to V to the Battletoads crossover. Even a poorly rated film and animated series focused on the American audience were created.
Former YouTube user theswitcher uploaded "Double Dragon Stupidity", a compilation of flawed scenes of the Double Dragon cartoon. Most people in its comments section compared Billy Lee's look to Kenshiro's. I responded to about every one of them by saying how Double Dragon was created, and one replied to each of mine, "No shit!"
Kazuo Sawa later composed Jaleco's Game Tengoku arcade and Avit's Ridegear Guybrave.
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Post by Neo Rasa on Mar 11, 2016 7:36:29 GMT -5
To be fair though, isn't complaining about how something runs on 30fps on a SNES a bit counterintuitive considering how bad the system clock was in the first place? Not really, it runs at 30 FPS literally the entire time. Like the SNES hardware had issues with slowdown during its early days but that was just in parts of the game, when there wasn't any tough action it ran smoothly. ROTD is literally "the game runs at half the proper framerate but at the same speed". It makes it feel really choppy. The worst is if you're moving around during the scene transitions you can see it running smoothly for a second as the screen fades out, what could have been.
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Post by alphex on Mar 11, 2016 7:46:49 GMT -5
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Post by Allie on Mar 11, 2016 10:29:39 GMT -5
I have no trouble admitting I'm an idiot, because I never really picked up on the Kenshiro thing until the GBA game made it the most blatant thing ever.
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Lord Dalek
Full Member
WHY DOES HE HAVE A SECOND/THIRD/FORTH/ETC. FORM?!?!
Posts: 249
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Post by Lord Dalek on Mar 11, 2016 12:46:22 GMT -5
I have no trouble admitting I'm an idiot, because I never really picked up on the Kenshiro thing until the GBA game made it the most blatant thing ever. It's window dressing at best. The plot lines make references to nuclear wars and stuff but the games themselves don't really go along with the aesthetic (although Double Dragon II NES' true final boss is a blatant Raoh lookalike).
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Post by Sac (a.k.a Icaras) on Mar 12, 2016 8:17:16 GMT -5
while Taito developed The New Zealand Story. What does that have to do with Japan liking Australia? The country name is right there in the title! Besides, everyone likes Australia, we're awesome Edit: Double Dragon was always one of those games you just expected to see in an Arcade, tho I never put much money into as it also seemed rock hard. I'd never seen or played arcade Double Dragon 2 until I bought the DD Trilogy on GoG (Which was a disappointing release). The DD Game I've put the most time in would be...probably Double Dragon 2 on the Gameboy (I got good enough at the game to clear it without being hit once), with the DOS Port of Double Dragon 3 coming in second (I also played this enough to be able to complete the game. I generally saved my in game credits until I got to Japan as I preferred the Japanese karate man character over all the others. I don't think he played better, but he had cooler animations...and he was a karate man, which just kinda made him more interesting to me)
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Post by 1983parrothead on Mar 12, 2016 9:58:47 GMT -5
Sac (a.k.a Icaras)I heard that New Zealand is part of Australia. There's even a New Zealand area in Data East's Wolf Fang, which it mostly takes place in Australia.
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Post by alphex on Mar 12, 2016 10:04:33 GMT -5
The DD Game I've put the most time in would be...probably Double Dragon 2 on the Gameboy (I got good enough at the game to clear it without being hit once), with the DOS Port of Double Dragon 3 coming in second (I also played this enough to be able to complete the game. I generally saved my in game credits until I got to Japan as I preferred the Japanese karate man character over all the others. I don't think he played better, but he had cooler animations...and he was a karate man, which just kinda made him more interesting to me) DD2 on the Game Boy is the first DD game I ever bought and owned myself (had a friend's copy of BT&DD for the SNES for years, though). I wish it was a better game; I quite like the setting (and yes, I am aware of the Kunio-Kun connection, but still, it IS quite different.)
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Lord Dalek
Full Member
WHY DOES HE HAVE A SECOND/THIRD/FORTH/ETC. FORM?!?!
Posts: 249
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Post by Lord Dalek on Mar 12, 2016 10:33:12 GMT -5
The NES ports are especially brutal. No in-stage health power ups and no continues (and in the case of Double Dragon III no lives!) whatsoever. That makes those games a real chore when you get to the awful AWFUL platforming sections later on.
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Post by vnisanian2001 on Mar 12, 2016 16:08:27 GMT -5
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Post by Sac (a.k.a Icaras) on Mar 13, 2016 0:59:21 GMT -5
Sac (a.k.a Icaras)I heard that New Zealand is part of Australia. There's even a New Zealand area in Data East's Wolf Fang, which it mostly takes place in Australia. You seriously think this? Haha, that's pretty funny (But also a little sad, I do hope you're joking) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_ZealandAnyway, as for DD2 Gameboy, I think it was easy to be forgiving of it at the time, as Perfect Arcade ports were the stuff of dreams back then, and I'd imagine most of us in our youths didn't have access to just go out and buy new games and systems whenever we wanted. I suppose that's why you sometimes re-play "old classic" ports and find them to be much shitter than you thought they were, heh.
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Post by bakudon on Mar 13, 2016 2:53:40 GMT -5
Game Boy DD1 did have a 2-player vs. mode, I think.
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Post by derboo on Mar 13, 2016 4:21:03 GMT -5
I guess I'm just bound to make stupid mistakes. :/ Yes, it's in, just reduced (no character selection).
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