|
Post by eatersthemanfool on Nov 29, 2018 1:00:15 GMT -5
I do however see attitudes on the left side today that I do think ironically echo the evangelical type attitudes, though what we're really talking about here is just people who simply take a very fanatical, absolutist attitude over their beliefs, I'm not accusing you personally of having that attitude, I'm just addressing the wider cultural context in which we have these debates.
That's where it gets tough, especially on an internet forum. I mean, I know there are definitely people who are way out of line on certain issues. They tend to be either teenagers who have no clue what they're talking about, or pundits who are trying to be PC without, once again, actually taking the time to understand the issues they're talking about. These are the sort of people who insist on referring to black people in England as "African American".
But also there are a hell of a lot of conservatives who think *any* discussion of civil rights is an "evangelical type attitude" and on the internet it's generally impossible to tell one from the other.
A lot of them don't even really mean anything. They're the sort of people who would go out of their way to help someone stranded on the side of the street or whatnot and not care about their skin color or socioeconomic status, but they still believe in the vaguely defined, threatening "Mexican" or "Gangster" or "Devil Worshipper" and vote accordingly, tacitly upholding institutions that do real harm.
Ed: Anyway, we're cool again. I know I'm kind of a hothead. Also I think most people would be fine with having a holiday like "thanksgiving", just either calling it something else or doing some sort of official gesture to separate it from the traditional, kind of fucked up, origins of the holiday. I mean I personally am not like "IT NEEDS TO BURN!", I just think it's kind of fucked up in context.
|
|
|
Post by GamerL on Nov 29, 2018 1:41:12 GMT -5
I do however see attitudes on the left side today that I do think ironically echo the evangelical type attitudes, though what we're really talking about here is just people who simply take a very fanatical, absolutist attitude over their beliefs, I'm not accusing you personally of having that attitude, I'm just addressing the wider cultural context in which we have these debates.
That's where it gets tough, especially on an internet forum. I mean, I know there are definitely people who are way out of line on certain issues. They tend to be either teenagers who have no clue what they're talking about, or pundits who are trying to be PC without, once again, actually taking the time to understand the issues they're talking about. These are the sort of people who insist on referring to black people in England as "African American".
But also there are a hell of a lot of conservatives who think *any* discussion of civil rights is an "evangelical type attitude" and on the internet it's generally impossible to tell one from the other.
A lot of them don't even really mean anything. They're the sort of people who would go out of their way to help someone stranded on the side of the street or whatnot and not care about their skin color or socioeconomic status, but they still believe in the vaguely defined, threatening "Mexican" or "Gangster" or "Devil Worshipper" and vote accordingly, tacitly upholding institutions that do real harm.
Ed: Anyway, we're cool again. I know I'm kind of a hothead. Also I think most people would be fine with having a holiday like "thanksgiving", just either calling it something else or doing some sort of official gesture to separate it from the traditional, kind of fucked up, origins of the holiday. I mean I personally am not like "IT NEEDS TO BURN!", I just think it's kind of fucked up in context. Cool, I'm glad we're cool again. And I understand, I hate the attitude of those who want to dismiss the left completely over the actions of a few bad apples, but you have to address the bad apples too, nobody should get a free pass for bad behavior nor should ideas go unchallenged and undebated just because they come from the left side, this is something I feel is too quickly forgotten. But it's a tightrope you have to walk of course. I'd like to share a few philosophical thoughts just so you understand where I'm coming from with this. This is all tied in I feel with the larger issue of what we talk about when we talk about America now, it's very a much a "glass half empty or half full?" type thing. Do you look at the whole of American history and see nothing but the bad or do you see the good also? I look at American history and I get as upset about the bad stuff as anyone, things like slavery or the treatment of Native Americans or segregation is profoundly depressing stuff. But I also look at American history and see a steady line of progress, while slavery was terrible America fought a bloody war to end it, Americans marched in the streets and did what they had to do to end segregation and as I said, modern America has a newfound understanding and respect of Native Americans, they're not treated as just stereotypical villains anymore. You can't change history, what's done is done, all we can do now is work our way from here and continue this progress and while sure, things aren't perfect and there's still a lot of progress to be done, I've noticed a sea change in left wing culture that comes off to me as very cynical and even nihilistic, some people are just down on America as an entire concept and have a "fuck it" attitude, and they let their discontent grow into an ugly resentment and vindictive attitude that I think only makes things worse. In other words, they want to tear things down and I'm more about wanting to build things up. This is also personified by the founding fathers themselves, yes, they owned slaves, they were not perfect men, but they created a perfect idea that outgrew and outlived them, that all men are created equal and should be free. Think of it like Batman and Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne is just a man but Batman is an idea, a symbol. That is what made the founding fathers great men at the end of the day, the fact that they created an ideal that America has still not perfectly lived up to, but let's not lose sight of that ideal. Just in general I don't like overly cynical, pessimistic attitudes, it only makes the world a worse place, the power of positive thinking can not be underestimated, I just see a lot of ugliness going around in modern American culture from both sides of the political spectrum and it's bringing us down instead of lifting us up.
|
|
|
Post by eatersthemanfool on Nov 29, 2018 2:24:15 GMT -5
I guess my thoughts on that are complicated, too. Because we as a nation are behind on *so many* fronts, and every year we fall further behind.
Also while there are a lot of good things in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, neither are perfect. Hell, that "All men are created equal and free" didn't even originate with us. France had as part of the Declaration of The Rights of Man and the Citizen in 1789. That's where we took it from.
I mean, this is by no means the worst place to live. It's definitely in the upper end of the list of places you'd want to be.
But we have a *nasty* history, and a lot of things are still ongoing that do not belong in "the land of the free". And somewhere around 50% of the population seem to agree with them, so it's hard to take any sort of American Exceptionalism talk seriously.
I grew up waving the stars and bars, but I really don't feel it anymore. I'd like to, but fuck the only reason I vote for the party I vote for is because they're less objectionable than the other guys. I don't *like* them.
|
|
|
Post by GamerL on Nov 29, 2018 3:56:31 GMT -5
I guess my thoughts on that are complicated, too. Because we as a nation are behind on *so many* fronts, and every year we fall further behind.
Also while there are a lot of good things in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, neither are perfect. Hell, that "All men are created equal and free" didn't even originate with us. France had as part of the Declaration of The Rights of Man and the Citizen in 1789. That's where we took it from.
I mean, this is by no means the worst place to live. It's definitely in the upper end of the list of places you'd want to be.
But we have a *nasty* history, and a lot of things are still ongoing that do not belong in "the land of the free". And somewhere around 50% of the population seem to agree with them, so it's hard to take any sort of American Exceptionalism talk seriously.
I grew up waving the stars and bars, but I really don't feel it anymore. I'd like to, but fuck the only reason I vote for the party I vote for is because they're less objectionable than the other guys. I don't *like* them. That's very understandable, America can be a hard to country to love sometimes (I'm certainly not a fan of the "love it or leave it" attitude even though I believe that everyone can come around to loving America with the right perspective, but it's understandably a challenge for some and telling someone to "leave it" is the wrong message) and there's a lot of bad stuff below the surface that has been bleeding out in recent years. But I think the ideal though is what's kept this country from flinging apart in the first place, we need to believe America is exceptional, that's there an almost Religious mission to our existence as a nation, in order for us to keeping getting better and not worse. And I do think America is exceptional because I think what we're doing is laying the groundwork for humanity as a spacefaring species, that is what it would be, the diverse peoples and cultures of the world coming together under one united goal. Think of the USA as a great, grand experiment to test humanity's mettle, to see how far we can go, that is in fact what the founding fathers, being Freemasons and into all that esoteric stuff, may have intended the USA to be in the first place. That is part of the problem with this nationalistic attitude that's been going around in recent years is that wanting to say "American" means only one thing and wanting to exclude others from that is ironically missing the point entirely and failing the experiment, doing anything but "making America great again"
|
|
|
Post by eatersthemanfool on Nov 29, 2018 5:39:08 GMT -5
Yea the nationalism thing is really getting out of hand.
|
|
|
Post by Snake on Dec 1, 2018 13:43:46 GMT -5
But I think the ideal though is what's kept this country from flinging apart in the first place, we need to believe America is exceptional, that's there an almost Religious mission to our existence as a nation, in order for us to keeping getting better and not worse. And I do think America is exceptional because I think what we're doing is laying the groundwork for humanity as a spacefaring species, that is what it would be, the diverse peoples and cultures of the world coming together under one united goal. Think of the USA as a great, grand experiment to test humanity's mettle, to see how far we can go, that is in fact what the founding fathers, being Freemasons and into all that esoteric stuff, may have intended the USA to be in the first place. That is part of the problem with this nationalistic attitude that's been going around in recent years is that wanting to say "American" means only one thing and wanting to exclude others from that is ironically missing the point entirely and failing the experiment, doing anything but "making America great again" I don't think the founding fathers were going for an experiment. I think they just want to establish a system of government that was free of tyranny, and most importantly, allowed for individual freedom. Free-market capitalism may not be the perfect system, but it looks like it has taken nearly 3 centuries for it to become corruptible, via corporate oligarchy, to what we are seeing today. Compare that to Socialism, Fascism, Communism, Martial Law, Monarchy, Anarchy, etc. All of those systems quickly become corruptible, because state power/government power is too concentrated. Breaking a Free-market capitalist democratic republic, with a division of power into 3 branches of checks and balances, forces the power hungry to play a very, very long pernicious game -- to break the rules of the game. No matter what the system or the game is, you will always have a very ambitious, win-at-all-costs, lie-cheat-steal group of individuals who want to break and control the system. Because most good people, good hearted people, the kind of people you want in government, are not selfish enough to win-at-all costs, or give up friends-family-honor, virtues of integrity. A lot of people would like to think America is great or exceptional, except we are not the production power-house that we were during the Industrial Age. You make a country rich by creating. Except much of big business have out-sourced production overseas to maximize profits; they bend the rules by setting up shells to minimize taxes --- with that money, they can buy-out the competition, emerging apps and programs, and lobby to give themselves a monopoly. Much of the US wealth is concentrated in Hollywood, Silicon Valley, oil, porn, pharmaceuticals, and finance. Hollywood and porn create entertainment. Look at Blizzard - bloody rich, create entertainment. Silicon Valley is the technology and software, which you arguably include Elon Musk's trifecta of Solar City/Space X/Tesla Motors. Pharmaceutical and medical industry for medical products and service. But finance merely plays a game of recirculating the money in the hands of the many, into the hands of the elite few who consistently win. All these businesses exist at the edges of the country. Much of the fly-over states do not make or create anything - factory jobs gone, coal is polluting and obsolete. American cars do not sell at the volume of Japanese and German cars, nor do any longer have the cachet of luxury European and Japanese cars - aside from Ford and still-incubating Tesla Motors, the rest of the US auto industry are just a shell of their former glory. What's left of America's brightest and most intelligent, go into industries that can provide a decent life, or profit. Most of the people in politics are not good, nor intelligent people. They are self-interested, and just pander for popularity, until they get their cushy job with corporate and legal connections. The good people in politics, because they are good and honorable, get eaten up by the corrupt sharks (case in point, Bernie Sanders. Here's to hoping Tulsi Gabbard gets more backing and influences, she's one of the good guys). Resources are already limited, despite the fact that all our previous Presidents and Congressman allow our billions in taxes to be given to Israel so that they can buy our weapons and give their own citizens a proper healthcare citizen, etc. All the I crave Trump's sperm-people are being sold on the dream to returning to when a one-income family can have a house with a grassy lawn, when America was a producer of goods, taxes were less, medical bills were less, and household debt was near-nonexistent. Then a populist fear is put on them of how much harder the competition will get if illegal immigrants are given a pass. "How can we support more illegal immigrants? We can't even take care of our local homeless population," they'll cry. Unfortunately, the 2-party team gang/ Bloods VS Crips, Red VS Blue, charade is never going to fix the fundamental problem --- who controls the money supply, and has all the industries and law makers by the balls.
|
|
|
Post by toei on Dec 1, 2018 16:51:00 GMT -5
...But I think the ideal though is what's kept this country from flinging apart in the first place, we need to believe America is exceptional, that's there an almost Religious mission to our existence as a nation, in order for us to keeping getting better and not worse. You think that because you grew up with that idea, that's all. Most countries think they're exceptional in some way, but most countries that aren't theocracies don't pretend they have some grand mission, and they hold together just as well (and often better) than the US. Including countries that are just as diverse.
|
|
|
Post by eatersthemanfool on Dec 1, 2018 22:44:26 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the 2-party team gang/ Bloods VS Crips, Red VS Blue, charade is never going to fix the fundamental problem --- who controls the money supply, and has all the industries and law makers by the balls. Yea, Like I mentioned in another thread, we are in sore need of a third major party at this point.
|
|
|
Post by Woody Alien on Dec 6, 2018 5:01:49 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Bumpyroad on Dec 23, 2018 7:58:01 GMT -5
Have a great festive season all !!
|
|
|
Post by eatersthemanfool on Dec 24, 2018 2:11:11 GMT -5
Festivus for the rest of us!
|
|
|
Post by Woody Alien on Dec 27, 2018 19:21:38 GMT -5
To be honest usually this time of the year makes me feel a bit melancholic and lonely instead of cheerful; every time I try something to pass the time without thinking about it too much, and this time I had the strange idea of listening to the soundtrack of the old anime movie Project A-ko. It kinda worked! It helps that I love 80s music and I still think the whole soundtrack is a quite good example of synthpop from that era, especially the "Follow Your Dreams" track.
|
|
|
Post by eatersthemanfool on Dec 27, 2018 21:31:17 GMT -5
Project A-Ko is kind of a guilty pleasure for me.
|
|
|
Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Jan 1, 2019 5:42:56 GMT -5
Happy New Year y'all nerds!
|
|
|
Post by eatersthemanfool on Jan 2, 2019 23:14:33 GMT -5
|
|