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Post by Maciej Miszczyk on Sept 16, 2016 13:12:10 GMT -5
Rebuild 3 was boring as hell and generally pretty damn horrible but it doesn't erase the original show in my mind. Rebuild series is a pointless reboot in general, many of you may disagree but I think the final two episodes were all the closure we needed.
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Post by moran on Sept 16, 2016 13:17:56 GMT -5
Watchmen was a bit long for me. I really liked the comic, but the movie was too much for me.
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Post by kaoru on Sept 16, 2016 17:57:50 GMT -5
I too really liked Watchmen overall, but thought it could have been a good half an hour shorter. But I did watch whatever the cut's name is that does include that animated cartoon backstory segments, which I think is the longest version, or at least was back when. Could have lived without those, they made an already long movie overlong and felt a bit displaced anyways.
And of course watch Evangelion, at least the original show. 26 half hour episodes isn't that much, and even if it turns out you somehow don't like it, at least you can say you watched it, it is one of those one really should have at one point. And if nothing else, Evangelion is certainly an interesting experience.
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Post by windfisch on Sept 17, 2016 9:32:06 GMT -5
Alan Moore recently crawled from his cave and declared with his crazy beard that comics was the worst thing ever to fiction and we all should feel ashamed for making them. Satoshi Kon in his Paranoid Agent said anime is full of angry murders, games make people delusional and will destroy the world . Final Fantasy advanced had Marche committing mass genocide, sort of, I think, they weren't very clear in the game itself. Why are so many people who think escapism is a form of evils that will cause the devil itself to come from the ground and eat the sun? Why are so many of them preaching the wonders of the world ignore the fact many people are not fully health rich people that can hope a jet and fly to some mountain area in a foreign country or actually do basic things, like one of my sick family members who cannot even wash themself because of health. Stopping watching/listening to tv, playing games or even never reading another book will never give them their health back, in fact it's the only them that makes them happy. Yes I heard the argument you want people to leave their house to talk to people, but if they are a special kind of screwed up do you really want them out and about? There is actually people who string wire along park paths to harm bicyclists, how come they get off light while somebody who sits in front of a tv all day gets all the flack? It's a rant, sorry about that, but I just want to say that as well that I will never understand the hate for escapism, much less using the medium of escapism to tell people that escapism is evil. That's like a beer company telling their costumers that beers is bad because it causes people to get drunk or a supermarket refusing to sell food because it might make people fat. First of all: very interesting topic! I'd love to read the original sources/quotes, could you share those? Personally, I think escapism is a double edged sword: The best kind of escapism can give you a break from everyday life struggles, can be uplifting and/or cathartic and even be inspirational and thought-provoking in some cases. However, like fastfood or drugs, it can also have a negative effect on individuals and society, especially in high doses: it has the potential to make you numb, to make you lose focus of real world problems. Escapist media can also carry more or less obvious political messages, which often go by unquestioned. I strongly believe that the human mind has a tendency to blend facts and fiction (on a more subconcious level), especially over time. We like to think narratively and that is why media like movies, games etc. have a certain propagandistic potential, even though recipients themselves know that the content is "just fictional". People like Alan Moore are aware of those kinds of negative effects. And, without having read the actual statement you're referring to, I suppose that is where he's coming from. While I'm admittedly guilty of obsessing over games or movies myself at times, one has to wonder what could be accomplished if some amount of the energy that goes into debating Batman v Superman, Ghostbusters or Federation Force went into trying to find solutions for real life topics? While there are undoubtedly some idiots out there, there are also many smart people who could make a difference, if they became more politically active.
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Post by windfisch on Sept 17, 2016 10:18:35 GMT -5
Watchmen was a bit long for me. I really liked the comic, but the movie was too much for me. And now back into nerdrage mode For me it was not the actual length, but the direction of the Watchmen movie that made it unbearable: it tries to mimic the comic book, without really understanding what made it so interesting: The book was an exploration of the narrative potential of superhero comics with strong political underrtones. What we got was added slowmotion violence, MTV nostalgia, the dullest performances for some of the more complex characters (namely Laurie Jupiter, Dan Dreiberg and Adrian Veidt) and further proof that sometimes comic book dialogue just does not work in other forms of media (duh!). Instead of using the original's core/spirit and building something around it that fits the movie format they went the opposite way of using an outer shell that at first glance resembles the original but with an added layer of paint. But further inspection reveals it to be completely hollow inside. I think the best way to adapt Watchmen would be a TV series made by a team that actually understands the original.
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Post by edmonddantes on Sept 17, 2016 10:37:36 GMT -5
Sorry if I missed something, but the first page seemed to consist of people who only saw the mention of Alan Moore ignoring that he wasn't the only person mentioned in the opening post and commented exclusively on that as if anti-escapism isn't a real thing.
And sadly, it is. Another celebrity I've seen be anti-escapism is Penn Jillette, of Penn and Teller. My grandfather also once accused me of "hiding from reality" because I like to read fantasy. People are stupid.
Actually, in my grandpa's case, he's one of those backwards hillbilly workaholics who thinks... basically no, I can't call it thinking, he's barely removed from an ape. He thinks life is all about survival of the species and if you're not doing something that adds to that survival then you're being a waste. I actually think Penn and Teller have used similar arguments--for example they think its wrong to censor sex because, you know, we should be encouraged to multiply like rabbits because that's how nature works.
The problem with this nonsense is that we're not animals, we're human beings. We're better. If anything, regressive "do it like they do on the Discovery Channel" logic is destructive to us and inspires far more evil in the world than escapism ever will, since after all if all that matters is making babies, kidnapping a girl to do that is just as valid a method as anything else. Because survival logic is sickeningly amoral like that.
Now, I think another issue some of these people have is they associate "escapism" with "ignoring the problems with reality." Now, there really are too many people who are lax and unaware of real problems--and I'm not talking about the big world hunger stuff people often bring up, but stuff like "your electrical wiring is bad and you should have it fixed." I've known people who get stressed the minute you try to be serious and then immediately want to watch Star Trek or something, and I think this is what Satoshi Kun is on about--in his mind these people shouldn't have these comfort chairs to sleep in because he thinks it would force them to sit up and fix their problems.
Sometimes I agree with that.
The problem though, is that if you take away the escapism--the comfort chair--you're also sometimes taking away the communicating of an idea that things could be better. I mean, to fix the electrical outlet you first have to know that its current state is unnatural and a result of decay in the first place. I once met a guy who said he didn't like an NES game--one I loved--and it turned out he was playing it on an emulator that ran it unnaturally fast, but since he didn't know, he just assumed this was normal. On a greater scale you sometimes see this with Asian cultures: for a long time many of them just assumed that kings being asshole dictators who run roughshod over citizenry was the way things were, the way god or whoever had decided things should be, and thus they became indoctrinated with humility. More recently though, they've come to realize no, that's bullshit, they don't have to accept it, and now you see more orientals questioning their authorities (not nearly enough, but it was happening).
People forget that telling stories is not just entertainment--its communication. It can give people thoughts and ideas that they may not get any other way. And "escapist" storytelling's best contribution is that it shows the way the world COULD be if we wanted it bad enough, and in doing so gives us guidelines on how to improve the world around us, so that if we're ever in a position to fix things we might know exactly what to do. Sure, there's other ways to learn this, but that in no way devalues this particular option.
Some people just hate life and want everyone to be miserable is probably the third answer.
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Post by edmonddantes on Sept 17, 2016 10:38:08 GMT -5
I've never seen Evangelion. Is it worth watching? HELL YES.
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Post by rainkaimaramon on Sept 18, 2016 8:53:18 GMT -5
Sorry if I missed something, but the first page seemed to consist of people who only saw the mention of Alan Moore ignoring that he wasn't the only person mentioned in the opening post and commented exclusively on that as if anti-escapism isn't a real thing. And sadly, it is. Another celebrity I've seen be anti-escapism is Penn Jillette, of Penn and Teller. My grandfather also once accused me of "hiding from reality" because I like to read fantasy. People are stupid. Actually, in my grandpa's case, he's one of those backwards hillbilly workaholics who thinks... basically no, I can't call it thinking, he's barely removed from an ape. He thinks life is all about survival of the species and if you're not doing something that adds to that survival then you're being a waste. I actually think Penn and Teller have used similar arguments--for example they think its wrong to censor sex because, you know, we should be encouraged to multiply like rabbits because that's how nature works. The problem with this nonsense is that we're not animals, we're human beings. We're better. If anything, regressive "do it like they do on the Discovery Channel" logic is destructive to us and inspires far more evil in the world than escapism ever will, since after all if all that matters is making babies, kidnapping a girl to do that is just as valid a method as anything else. Because survival logic is sickeningly amoral like that. Now, I think another issue some of these people have is they associate "escapism" with "ignoring the problems with reality." Now, there really are too many people who are lax and unaware of real problems--and I'm not talking about the big world hunger stuff people often bring up, but stuff like "your electrical wiring is bad and you should have it fixed." I've known people who get stressed the minute you try to be serious and then immediately want to watch Star Trek or something, and I think this is what Satoshi Kun is on about--in his mind these people shouldn't have these comfort chairs to sleep in because he thinks it would force them to sit up and fix their problems. Sometimes I agree with that. The problem though, is that if you take away the escapism--the comfort chair--you're also sometimes taking away the communicating of an idea that things could be better. I mean, to fix the electrical outlet you first have to know that its current state is unnatural and a result of decay in the first place. I once met a guy who said he didn't like an NES game--one I loved--and it turned out he was playing it on an emulator that ran it unnaturally fast, but since he didn't know, he just assumed this was normal. On a greater scale you sometimes see this with Asian cultures: for a long time many of them just assumed that kings being asshole dictators who run roughshod over citizenry was the way things were, the way god or whoever had decided things should be, and thus they became indoctrinated with humility. More recently though, they've come to realize no, that's bullshit, they don't have to accept it, and now you see more orientals questioning their authorities (not nearly enough, but it was happening). People forget that telling stories is not just entertainment--its communication. It can give people thoughts and ideas that they may not get any other way. And "escapist" storytelling's best contribution is that it shows the way the world COULD be if we wanted it bad enough, and in doing so gives us guidelines on how to improve the world around us, so that if we're ever in a position to fix things we might know exactly what to do. Sure, there's other ways to learn this, but that in no way devalues this particular option. Some people just hate life and want everyone to be miserable is probably the third answer. This, so much is how I actually feel about escapism and sums it up perfectly. And I do believe the third answer is most common.
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Post by edmonddantes on Sept 18, 2016 21:56:51 GMT -5
So, for what these thoughts are worth: I'm with the guy who thinks the TV conclusion of Evangelion was all we needed. As for Evangelion itself... its an anime I watch again every 5-10 years, and each time it leaves me feeling like I learned something or gained a level of perspective. It really is the kind of series that feels good to watch even if its not "entertaining" in the classic sense. Sort of like how spinach and tomatoes don't taste good, but you feel better for having eaten them. I never saw Rebuild. As for Watchmen: On the Spoony Experiment forums I actually posted a topic admitting I don't like the graphic novel that much (I haven't seen the movie). I would still consider it a classic though, because it seems like there's still always thoughtful analysis to be had of it even when people are admitting its not all that good (And I was actually surprised that the denizens of the Spoony forum were pretty receptive and understanding of my criticisms, and even agreed that most of them were spot-on). I would repost it here, but it's a long one. Since Spoony's forum requires registration to read, I instead screencapped my post and uploaded the screencap to my Google Drive as a .png file. Here's the link, though you may have to download it then open the png with a web browser to read it.
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Post by llj on Sept 20, 2016 19:10:10 GMT -5
Rebuild feels like something specifically calculated for mass consumption. It's like Hollywood, tailored to suit the tastes of the broadest audience possible. The Evangelion TV series wasn't like that. It was supposed to be just another giant robot show at a time when mecha was dying in anime. At the time, Gainax was not the sexy new kid on the block anymore, they were low on funds and close to closing up shop. So Evangelion was kind of Anno just pushing his luck with what he could get away with both budget-saving wise and content wise. The TV series felt more like personal confession, which you don't get from Rebuild. That the TV series became such a success is more a testament to what Anno inadvertently tapped into at the time in the Japanese psyche during the 90s, rather than a show with various market-tested elements precisely calculated to achieve the greatest degree of ratings success.
The one thing I would say with new viewers wanting to get to the "weird" stuff in Evangelion is that the show is pretty normal stuff up until episode 11 or so. Then it goes progressively deeper into more abstract territory.
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Gorse
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Post by Gorse on Sept 20, 2016 19:57:00 GMT -5
I liked Eva a lot when I was younger, but these days I mostly just remember it as a lot of pretension and unwarranted aggression. For a kid like me who loved nothing more than spending multiple school nights reading through fan-wikis and going "Oh, is that what that meant? Is that why X did what she did?", it was a lot of fun, and I really liked looking into all the merch and seeing how the characters were viewed through different lights (wasn't there a murder mystery spinoff novel or something!?).
As I got older, I started to realize how weirdly uncomfortable the series made me feel, especially End of Eva. Taken on it's own, the scene where Shinji jacks off on an unconscious Asuka was a goofy bit of weirdness that had my 14-year-old self rolling with laughter ("I'm so fucked up" sent me into conniptions). But apparently it was meant as an allegory for people who... enjoy anime? As if enjoying a fictional piece of media in your privacy is equivalent to yoinking it on a comatose girl? That part where it shows all those people in the theatre... it was making fun of those people? It felt an awful lot like Hideki Anno was pushing my face to the screen and yelling "Look at that! That's you! That's not me, I'm a very very smart and original fellow, that's you", which is something I did not appreciate one bit.
I went back and looked over the series, and started to think that I really didn't like it very much at all. The characters all have just the kookiest mental problems, and they're all quirky showbiz "OH LORD LOOK AT ME I'M JUST SO UNRESPONSIVE TO OTHER PEOPLE" mental problems that are fun to mug in front of an audience that thinks a character crying over a dead relative is high-level storytelling. The best part of the show, the crazy monsters, get pushed to the wayside way too quickly (I really like that guy who's just a big eyeball with arms) in favour of scenes where Asuka plays in a sandbox or whatever. I don't care about that shit! Just show the big robo-dude throwing a spear at a bird monster! There was just an awful lot of me drumming my fingers on the table going "yup yup uh huh I get that she doesn't seem to like Shinji so much let's see some tits or monsters please".
For what it's worth, I like the manga a lot more. It has a much more traditionally structured story (it ran for a really long time...) and the characters have more to their personality than pseudo-intellectual mental disease #247. Asuka especially is just a whole lot of fun when you can actually see her live life like a normal human being.
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Post by JDarkside on Sept 20, 2016 20:31:52 GMT -5
The "kooky mental problems" remark bugs me because Anno himself was suffering from a "kooky mental problem."
Depression.
Anno was heavily depressed during the production of Evangelion, and End was basically him lashing out at an audience who didn't give a shit about his personal message of loving yourself delivered at the end of the anime because they wanted more giant monsters and know who Shinji boned. That's doubly frustrating, because Rei was partly made to be a sobering example of the weird fetishes these people had presented in a realistic light, but they still sexualized her anyways.
I kind of love EVA more with age as I get more involved in writing about art and stories, because while it's a sloppy mess in many respects, the sheer ambition and how much of the staff's soul was put into it becomes harder to ignore the more you learn. Gainax almost went under trying to make this show work after the budget bottomed out, and Anno was in the middle of a very serious mental breakdown. I respect the ending of the series more because of how positivie it was when made in such a dark time, and I kind of adore End in many respects because it repeated much of the same messages, but tossed out positivity and instead showed a mirror to the more troubling audience members.
Shinji's more awful behavior in the later half is outright parroting of some of the grosser thoughts and views in a lot of otaku circles, even to this day (and especially with the sexism). The world ends because someone who can't love themselves can only hate everyone else, and he failed to be any sort of savior. He became the audience that rejected the heartfelt message of the first show, the audience that didn't care about the themes and haunting ideas, only explosions and self-inserting to the point where personal satisfaction was all he could think about (thus Asuka reappearing at the end). Because things didn't go his way, he lashed out like an idiot and people suffered for it.
Eva is ultimately a series about introspection and finding the ability to respect and love yourself in order to grow as a person, and that message speaks to me more and more every passing year.
I like fun, waste of time stuff, but even if I don't initially like something weird or pretentious, I tend to get way more out of it in the long run.
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Gorse
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Post by Gorse on Sept 20, 2016 20:39:27 GMT -5
I couldn't really care if Anno wrote the script to End of Evangelion from his hospital bed after suffering from a tragic "giant alien demon monster fell on me" injury... I still don't consider any of the characters particularly well-written. Actually, let me revise that - I consider all of the characters particularly poorly written, the message of the series insulting (though ultimately pointless as I can buy officially licensed hentai games with Misato's face on for around $5), and Anno a pompous dick.
I heard the new Godzilla movie was pretty good, though! I hope there isn't a scene where a soldier curls up in the fetal position while flying a helicopter because, by golly, his pop-pop just didn't hug him enough.
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Post by JDarkside on Sept 20, 2016 21:20:01 GMT -5
I couldn't really care if Anno wrote the script to End of Evangelion from his hospital bed after suffering from a tragic "giant alien demon monster fell on me" injury... I still don't consider any of the characters particularly well-written. Actually, let me revise that - I consider all of the characters particularly poorly written, the message of the series insulting (though ultimately pointless as I can buy officially licensed hentai games with Misato's face on for around $5), and Anno a pompous dick. I take it you're not that familiar with depression, then. Like, he was literally in a state that leads to suicidal thoughts. I get not liking the series, but don't make light of what he tried to do based on his personal experiences and frustrations. It's outright choosing to ignore the value a work has for so many. Disliking or hating it is one thing, but how about not making light of a man who deals with serious depression? Also, the message isn't "don't jack off to anime girls," it's "think about how you view these shows and do something beneficial to you and your emotional state, and avoid becoming someone toxic and dangerous to others." And that is something that needs to be heard more and more. There are so many subcultures today of toxic ideology selling self-loathing disguised as truth that learning the importance of introspection and value for yourself is desperately needed. No matter how you feel about the series, don't insult beautiful thoughts and ideas like that.
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Gorse
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Post by Gorse on Sept 20, 2016 21:28:29 GMT -5
You'd be right about that! I don't really see what it has to do with me not liking Eva, though.
The fact Anno was depressed while making the show doesn't immediately give him a ticket to get out of my opinion. I'll think his show was dumb no matter what state he was in, thanks.
And I think that's kind of a goofy message! You'll have to pardon me if I'd rather enjoy a piece of media than stand by the edge of the sandbox kicking my feet while the rest of the kids are having fun. But I guess I'm just a toxic ideologue!
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