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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 9:39:48 GMT -5
That lines up with everything I've heard about the attitude towards homosexuality in Japan. It's supposedly tolerated, but you have to get married and have kids to keep up appearances.
Having said that, I think you might have been looking for more than was reasonable to expect from this game. You present a lot of interesting questions about marriage and relationships, but the goal of Catherine wasn't to truly deconstruct what it means to get married. It was more about the fight-or-flight response that kicks in when men realize they have to finally grow up. Not every person is going to be able to relate to that.
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Post by dsparil on Aug 2, 2017 9:48:25 GMT -5
I actually watched a super saddening documentary of the gay scene in Tokyo once, where one of the interview questions to the young gay guys was where they see themselves in the future. And the majority answered that they'll marry a woman and start a family, for the sole reason that this is what they think is expected of them. This does seem to be changing slowly. There's been a pride festival in Shibuya for a few years now, although it's technically a "rainbow pride" festival celebrating diversity. There's been slow movement towards civil unions. I remember watching a video a few months ago about the festival with interviews of attendees and it did seem that things were progressing in general although there weren't that many interviewees. Things do seem to being moving forward at least even if slowly.
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Post by kaoru on Aug 2, 2017 10:04:43 GMT -5
Btw, I do still think that Catherine, for what it is, is a hell of an entertaining (and quotable) ride. I just had to acclimate myself to it. Because when it came out everyone seemed to pitch it as this deep thoughtfull essay on modern relationships and the problems therein. So it came as a bit of a surprise when playing that this game is really stupid. I think it actually gets better about half way ish through, when Catherine gives up on the pretense of having anything meaningful to say, and just becomes balls to the wall Dumb Anime Shit: The Game.
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Post by llj on Aug 2, 2017 11:46:28 GMT -5
Although different, a lot of what has been said about Japan's attitude towards gender, sexual preference and relationships still applies in parts of Western society. I think we've all realized by now that there is a strong regressive trend still evident, and there are even many millennials with a more conservative and traditional outlook on relationships than you would think. This is even more apparent in large parts of the U.S. outside of the big cities
I've lived most of my life in or near big cities in both Canada and the U.S., but traveling to other parts of the U.S., I've been often stunned how large parts of it still look like they never past the 1970s. The contrast between living in big cosmopolitan cities like NYC and L.A. and other parts of the U.S. are striking.
I would imagine with Japan there are parts of the country that are more liberal than others.
That said, I always feel a bit uncomfortable making sweeping statements like these though. I always see Western anime fans make all these sweeping conclusions about Japan based solely on what they've watched and maybe reading the occasional article. You simply cannot make too many conclusions about a country based on their entertainment or some documentaries.
I know an American who's been living in Japan for about 10 years. And though he's obviously biased because he prefers living there now, it's always interesting to compare his first-hand experiences with the more "outsider" opinions, of which there are seemingly plenty online.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 12:03:16 GMT -5
That's true, it's dangerous to base one's opinions on an entire nation and race of people on just what they've seen or heard from entertainment. While I can't say with 100% certainty whether the things I've heard about Japan's views on homosexuality are true across the majority of the country, I do know that it all comes from people I've known who have lived in Japan for nearly a decade.
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Post by eatersthemanfool on Aug 2, 2017 15:45:34 GMT -5
In any country of however million people, any discussion of "the prevailing attitude" is going to have a ton of counterpoints and outliers. Also the wikipedia page for sexuality in Japan is kind of mess.
However, yea a lot of this stuff isn't just coming from entertainment. The Japanese government has been putting a fair bit of money into researching why rates of both marriage and birth are falling, so there is some reasonably reliable data out there to back up what's being said here.
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Post by GamerL on Aug 2, 2017 17:51:37 GMT -5
Put it to you this way though, Japan would never have it's equivalent of the Westboro Baptist Church with people waving around signs that say "God Hates friends" and picketing dead people's funerals, you only get that kind of homophobia when people feel like they have a Religious reason to hate it.
Japanese society seems like it puts the emphasis on the "whole" versus the self, which is the total opposite of western society where it's all about individuality, the obsession with marriage and the birth rate is because of that and objections to homosexuality are because you are seen as not "doing your part" by getting married, having kids, adding to the Japanese economy basically, not because they think it's a Religious sin.
I think that's a pretty key difference.
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Post by Snake on Aug 2, 2017 18:07:18 GMT -5
However, yea a lot of this stuff isn't just coming from entertainment. The Japanese government has been putting a fair bit of money into researching why rates of both marriage and birth are falling, so there is some reasonably reliable data out there to back up what's being said here. I'm surprised they needed to put money into research at all. To me, it just seems like it's economically difficult, which makes people shy away from parenthood. Does the Japanese government provide program incentives and write-offs for those who have kids? Like for us here in the US, I'm seeing more friends avoiding the idea of having kids, or keeping their child count to 2 tops. It's just logistically difficult for a 2-income family to reasonably raise multiple kids. Not while the economy and the value of the dollar is going down, and the cost of everything rises. Japan has never really been the powerhouse it was, since the burst of their bubble economy of the 1980's ~ early 1990's.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2017 18:28:52 GMT -5
I'd heard there was some kind of bonus in Japan of something like 180,000 yen for having a kid.
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Post by aganar on Aug 2, 2017 20:43:28 GMT -5
This does seem to be changing slowly. There's been a pride festival in Shibuya for a few years now, although it's technically a "rainbow pride" festival celebrating diversity. There's been slow movement towards civil unions. I remember watching a video a few months ago about the festival with interviews of attendees and it did seem that things were progressing in general although there weren't that many interviewees. Things do seem to being moving forward at least even if slowly. Japan seems to currently be where the US was circa-2004*. They'll tolerate the caricature gay--the super-flaming, rainbow-wearing spectacle, ala hard gay, but I think the idea of "Mild mannered guy in his 40's who happens to be gay" still scares them. I imagine it will improve. People have much more direct access to developers these days with social media and whatnot, so I'm hopeful that if people continue to push back against one-dimensional LBGT characters, we'll get something more nuanced. *: I picked 2004 in particular, since it was arguably a wave of videos depicting mild-mannered gay men kissing in public and holding hands plastered all over the media that kicked off a renewed wave of homophobia and won Bush a second term in office.
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Post by jorpho on Aug 2, 2017 23:43:48 GMT -5
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Post by llj on Aug 3, 2017 9:50:50 GMT -5
However, yea a lot of this stuff isn't just coming from entertainment. The Japanese government has been putting a fair bit of money into researching why rates of both marriage and birth are falling, so there is some reasonably reliable data out there to back up what's being said here. I'm surprised they needed to put money into research at all. To me, it just seems like it's economically difficult, which makes people shy away from parenthood. Does the Japanese government provide program incentives and write-offs for those who have kids? I've heard some theorists argue that their strict immigration policies actually contributes to this. An advanced nation with a drastically falling population is susceptible to constant recessions because you need the population to keep renewing itself to match up to how much they had invested for a larger population during its peak years several decades ago. The current population problem could be partially solved by taking in more immigrants, or more specifically making it a more attractive nation for immigrants since there are all sorts of limitations for foreigners living there. Although that also has its challenges considering the relatively small size of Japan, coupled with the density of the more attractive cities, etc,.
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Post by Discoalucard on Aug 3, 2017 10:00:30 GMT -5
One of the things about discussing cultural issues is that you pretty much have to talk in generalizations. Cultures are so broad that there are naturally going to be exceptions, even fairly significant ones. Like, the United States is a fairly Christian country. That doesn't speak to large swathes of the country, especially seeing how it varies by region, but there are enough data or factual examples you can pick (quick one: the current VP) that you can be comfortable making that assertion. I'd heard there was some kind of bonus in Japan of something like 180,000 yen for having a kid. In the US you get a small tax deduction and a $1000 tax credit per kid. Considering you'll chew through that with just a single month of child care, it's not much. I'm always curious about the issue of child care in Japan since it seems like the general perception is still that the mother will quit her job and stay home, so they aren't as prevalent as they are in other countries (no idea on the cost).
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Post by jackcaeylin on Aug 3, 2017 10:18:28 GMT -5
I'm surprised they needed to put money into research at all. To me, it just seems like it's economically difficult, which makes people shy away from parenthood. Does the Japanese government provide program incentives and write-offs for those who have kids? I've heard some theorists argue that their strict immigration policies actually contributes to this. An advanced nation with a drastically falling population is susceptible to constant recessions because you need the population to keep renewing itself to match up to how much they had invested for a larger population during its peak years several decades ago. The current population problem could be partially solved by taking in more immigrants, or more specifically making it a more attractive nation for immigrants since there are all sorts of limitations for foreigners living there. Although that also has its challenges considering the relatively small size of Japan, coupled with the density of the more attractive cities, etc,. The main problem with Japan is also the international affairs. It seems like that their decisions weren't well thought for long terms, because if the world decide to cut the international economy trading stuff, then Japan cannot really survive. They depend on the international market and contracts so much. I remember when I researched the japanese stock exchange due to work, it was 3 years ago and man .... the result was hardcore. The stock exchange (nikkei225) was still suffering, because of the international economic crisis and that was some years ago (2008). The chasm was so huge, if you compare it with NASDAQ. CAC40 or DAX .I think, even if they want to allow more people into the country, the problem can only be partially solved, because they recover so slowly and Japan cannot win the "brain drain" (Edit: the official term for the english language is: Human capital flight) war with Canada or other countries. They cannot really offer the same "cherries". It looks like an herculean task. Yours sincerely Jack Caeylin
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Post by cj iwakura on Aug 3, 2017 20:45:53 GMT -5
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