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Post by JoeQ on Mar 2, 2018 3:19:07 GMT -5
What's wrong with FFIV DS?
Aren't the DS versions of DQ4-6 considered pretty good? I'm also pretty sure that Front Mission (1st) DS is the best version of FM1.
Super Robot Wars/Taisen: Original Generations for PS2 is a complete remake of the GBA OG games and adds loads of new content, systems and retcons the story. Official English translation is the only reason you'd play the GBA games over it.
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on Mar 2, 2018 5:22:02 GMT -5
The SNES and GBC versions of DQ1/2/3 and the DS versions of DQ 4/5/6 are definitely well regarded.
Pokémon FR/LG and HG/SS are usually regarded better than R/B and G/S as well.
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Post by Discoalucard on Mar 2, 2018 9:39:29 GMT -5
What's wrong with FFIV DS? Aren't the DS versions of DQ4-6 considered pretty good? I'm also pretty sure that Front Mission (1st) DS is the best version of FM1. FF4 DS is ugly, it's hard in ways that aren't often good, and the new system they introduced to slightly customize characters was not very well thought out. The DS Dragon Quests are pretty good...though I prefer the SFC version of DQ6. The problem with all of the DS games is that the styles are homogenized. It's not a big deal for 4 and 5 since their original versions were kinda ugly, but 6 was a pretty good looking game, so the switch almost feels like a slightly downgrade. There are a couple of minor things they changed too (I can't remember offhand). It's not BAD but even if it lost the consistency, a straighter port a la Chrono Trigger would've been better.
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Post by edmonddantes on Mar 2, 2018 10:09:12 GMT -5
Very first thing I thought of when I read the OP was:
Many have already mentioned Ys I and II Chronicles, but let's not forget that for a long time the Turbo CD release was considered the definitive version, and it too was a port/remake.
On a personal note I sometimes feel like PC games get better when ported to consoles. Ultima III: Exodus and Might and Magic: Secret of the Inner Sanctum are both better on the NES than the PC (and even with all the fanmade updates to Ultima III on PC, the NES version is still superior). I'd argue that Might and Magic II: Gates to Another World plays better on the Sega Genesis as well (plus I really like its soundtrack), but that's largely a matter of taste.
On another personal note, one issue that I feel can come up is if the remake is too different. Once you get to a certain point, it basically becomes an all new game. Some people consider the Lunar PS1 versions to be replacements for the Sega CD ones. I can't see it that way, any more than I can see Peter Jackson's King Kong as a replacement for the original 1930s version--they're different to the point of being distinct entities. I'm not sure where I personally draw the line.
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Post by dsparil on Mar 2, 2018 11:11:28 GMT -5
I mostly take issue with this premise. That is a problem with certain recent Square remakes mainly due to their mobile origins, but I don't think it's true in general. Some remakes might have specific issues, but there's a good faith attempt to improve on or at preserve the original. GBA remakes might have some issues, but the FF ones didn't seem to have any major problems when I played them. NES to SNES seem to always be better although the only one I've personally played is Megami Tensei I.
PC to console ports are an interesting case. Ports of early pre-DOS cRPGs due fair well, Ultima IV SMS is considered the definitive version, since they are in some ways a hardware upgrade. Anything later has to get stripped down e.g. Ultima VII SNES, and loses a whole lot.
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Post by wyrdwad on Mar 2, 2018 12:05:09 GMT -5
On a personal note I sometimes feel like PC games get better when ported to consoles. Ultima III: Exodus and Might and Magic: Secret of the Inner Sanctum are both better on the NES than the PC (and even with all the fanmade updates to Ultima III on PC, the NES version is still superior). I'd argue that Might and Magic II: Gates to Another World plays better on the Sega Genesis as well (plus I really like its soundtrack), but that's largely a matter of taste. By that same token, Ultima: Quest of the Avatar (Ultima IV) on NES is also another great example. Honestly, that game got an even bigger upgrade than the NES port of Ultima III! The only thing Exodus has over QotA is its music, which is definitely a bit catchier -- but QotA puts forth a good effort to that end as well, and just has a much cleaner and more appealing aesthetic all around. ...However, the pedant in me does also feel compelled to point out that none of the Ultima games -- not even the Might and Magic games, I believe -- technically count as JRPGs, since they aren't originally from Japan. -Tom
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Post by Digitalnametag on Mar 2, 2018 16:51:45 GMT -5
I know that Valkyrie Profile PSP is supposed to be really good but I haven't played it yet. Both versions of Valkyrie Profile have their upsides. The US PS1 version has a few important bug fixes that the PSP version (based on the Japanese PS1) does not incorporate. The PS1 VP does have some censorship that is not present in the PSP version. The PSP version suffers from load times though. Nothing like waiting a second for menus to load. I prefer the PS1 version, but it seems SE is teasing something VP: Lenneth related so maybe a remake/port is once again on the way?
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Post by Owlman on Mar 2, 2018 19:21:07 GMT -5
The pre-3D Final Fantasy remakes are generally considered to be good, from my experience, as are the Dragon Quest 16-bit remakes.
Also, I will defend Final Fantasy II to the death. TO THE DEATH!
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Post by starscream on Mar 2, 2018 20:30:15 GMT -5
On a personal note I sometimes feel like PC games get better when ported to consoles. Ultima III: Exodus and Might and Magic: Secret of the Inner Sanctum are both better on the NES than the PC (and even with all the fanmade updates to Ultima III on PC, the NES version is still superior). I'd argue that Might and Magic II: Gates to Another World plays better on the Sega Genesis as well (plus I really like its soundtrack), but that's largely a matter of taste. The Genesis port of Might and Magic II had some things done to it's battle system that made it hard for me to believe it was intentional - every character can directly attack from every position and characters in the player's party always get attacked in the same order, one after another. To me it seemed it more like severe bugs than simplifications.
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Post by blackdrazon on Mar 2, 2018 20:43:16 GMT -5
SaGa 2 and 3 have great DS remakes. Though while we're talking about FFIV DS being bad, I want to throw my stick in the pile by saying FFIII DS is simply wretched. FFIV DS is hard in ways that aren't good, but FFIII DS is like a slot machine. The Famicom game is really good! But with no other officially translated versions, people don't have many options. Is there really a remake of a beloved JRPG that was considered inferior? Be it Pokemon, Final Fantasy or Megaten, when it comes to remakes, they usually improve on something and make the game more polished and playable for newer generation. JRPG is probably the most "remake-able" genre you can get - core mechanics are still fun enough, but old JRPGs often suffer from balancing and UI issues, so fixing and re-releasing the oldies is a no-brainer in this case. I agree. In my experience, jRPG remakes don't have a history of bad ports, especially if you cast aside Square Enix's recent behaviour. With apologies to the OP, most of the OP's examples aren't examples that are considered inferior, but examples that are not considered superior, which isn't the same thing. Most of them would probably track in the neighbourhood of similar in quality to the original. I can understand price point complaints (especially with Secret of Mana), but that argument doesn't always stand up in the past, especially during years when it was harder to get your hands on the original copies and a remake meant it was back on the shelves. Hell, in my experience with the FF fandom, the Final Fantasy remakes on the GBA are considered superior, sound and graphics notwithstanding (with the exception of FFIV GBA, which had a fatal error in the ATB system, and the subjective nature of FFI's difficulty changes).
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Post by alphex on Mar 2, 2018 23:12:06 GMT -5
Is there really a remake of a beloved JRPG that was considered inferior? Be it Pokemon, Final Fantasy or Megaten, when it comes to remakes, they usually improve on something and make the game more polished and playable for newer generation. JRPG is probably the most "remake-able" genre you can get - core mechanics are still fun enough, but old JRPGs often suffer from balancing and UI issues, so fixing and re-releasing the oldies is a no-brainer in this case. I agree. In my experience, jRPG remakes don't have a history of bad ports, especially if you cast aside Square Enix's recent behaviour. With apologies to the OP, most of the OP's examples aren't examples that are considered inferior, but examples that are not considered superior, which isn't the same thing. Most of them would probably track in the neighbourhood of similar in quality to the original. I can understand price point complaints (especially with Secret of Mana), but that argument doesn't always stand up in the past, especially during years when it was harder to get your hands on the original copies and a remake meant it was back on the shelves. Hell, in my experience with the FF fandom, the Final Fantasy remakes on the GBA are considered superior, sound and graphics notwithstanding (with the exception of FFIV GBA, which had a fatal error in the ATB system, and the subjective nature of FFI's difficulty changes). The GBA version of Tales of Phantasia is the one I played, and I was kinda puzzled to find out it was loathed. I even prefer the map music! I also remember wanting to pick up Sword of Mana, which ALSO got shit slung at it. And then we have the recent remakes by SquareEnix; so yeah, it was somewhat guided by that, but Sword of Mana is over 10 years old at this point. Hardly "recent". And while JRPGs may lent themselves to remakes in theory (hence there are many of them)...I just realized you said "ports". That's different IMO because it disqualifies "enhanced" ports like DS versions of NES games. But I guess somehow this thread is kinda about "are video games art", even if it's in the context of the most Skinner boxian genre on consoles. Because for how much they could be better in theory, it often comes short. (ETA: Sorry if this post is kinda rambling, I'm super tired; might unclutter it after a good night's sleep)
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Post by blackdrazon on Mar 3, 2018 3:10:04 GMT -5
Shoot, you're right: I was coming at this from the approach of "ports," not "remakes." Just disregard my post.
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Post by nerdybat on Mar 3, 2018 5:54:14 GMT -5
Are there that many undisputed, absolute remakes, though? I think the line between "port" and "remake" is really blurred with JRPGs, since mechanics and important plot points more often than not remain the same. For me personally, everything that doesn't rely heavily original code or assets is a remake (since developers were involved in rebuilding the game from the ground up), which is the case for majority of mentioned titles in the thread - Chrono Trigger DS, for example, is definitely a port, but Final Fantasy III/IV for the same system are anything but.
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Post by zerker on Mar 3, 2018 7:29:05 GMT -5
By that same token, Ultima: Quest of the Avatar (Ultima IV) on NES is also another great example. Honestly, that game got an even bigger upgrade than the NES port of Ultima III! The only thing Exodus has over QotA is its music, which is definitely a bit catchier -- but QotA puts forth a good effort to that end as well, and just has a much cleaner and more appealing aesthetic all around. Too bad combat was made entirely too tedius on the NES version. The direct control of the characters on the computer versions made for a much better flow than the menu/cursor pairing on NES. I also rather like the keyword conversation system Also, you guys seems to have forgotten the PS1/Saturn Lunar games (e.g. the 'Complete' versions). Which reminds me, I still need to grab the PS1 version of Lunar 1 sometime.
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Post by alphex on Mar 3, 2018 9:50:21 GMT -5
Are there that many undisputed, absolute remakes, though? I think the line between "port" and "remake" is really blurred with JRPGs, since mechanics and important plot points more often than not remain the same. For me personally, everything that doesn't rely heavily original code or assets is a remake (since developers were involved in rebuilding the game from the ground up), which is the case for majority of mentioned titles in the thread - Chrono Trigger DS, for example, is definitely a port, but Final Fantasy III/IV for the same system are anything but. Super Mario All Stars is the first one that comes to mind.
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