Was there ever a remake of a beloved JRPG that wasn't...

[alphex]

...considered inferior?

Obviously the Secret of Mana remake inspired this, but I also remembered that SquareEnix had previously remade Seiken Densetsu 1; the Game Boy one, for the GBA... and made it extremely verbose, to the point most impressions I've read were that the original was better. Capcom remade their SNES JRPGs on the GBA as well, but the graphics and music kept them from being definitive versions. Tales of Phantasia's GBA version is loathed from what I can tell (tbh, I really like it though). Mobile remakes obviously suffer in the art department. FFV & VI you could argue were mostly straight ports, but even then I am not sure if they are actually considered superior, even if they added stuff (only played the remake of FFV).

I mean, the thing is: JRPGs were the AAA titles of their time. To remake them simply with better technology and a low budget will cut out the working hours required to fine tune subtle details, and just because it's technically superior, art direction and style is not just a matter of hardware. It's a genre that is really tough to remake for cheap, and the track record for remakes kinda shows this.

On the other hand, early RPGs aged like milk; grind heavy, super tough and heavy on trial and error puzzles. They could easily benefit from a remake - that's why I said "beloved JRPGs". But still, I've never compared the original and the remade Dragon Quest games.

So, uhm, yeah, are there actually any remakes of JRPGs that made the original version no longer the definitive one? Do you have high hopes for stuff like the FFVII remake, does the track record (not) bother you?

[mainpatr]

I know that Valkyrie Profile PSP is supposed to be really good but I haven't played it yet. Persona 2:Innocent Sin for PSP is actually better than the original. Chrono Trigger DS is good too.

[phediuk]

Ys: The Oath in Felghana is a vast improvement over Ys 3.

Actually, the various remakes of Ys 1 and 2 are generally much better than the originals too.

[lurker]

Mar 1, 2018 20:47:10 GMT -5 mainpatr said:

I know that Valkyrie Profile PSP is supposed to be really good but I haven't played it yet. Persona 2:Innocent Sin for PSP is actually better than the original. Chrono Trigger DS is good too.

Chrono Trigger DS is technically a port, though.

[ommadawnyawn2]

I started playing DQ3 for SNES a while back and was quite impressed with the updates in that one, it's about on par with FF5 or so gameplay-wise. Haven't compared the versions directly in detail but it seems well liked by others too.

Do romhacks count? That's what I tend to go to first when I feel like playing an old JRPG as I like to get close to the original's aesthetics and overall content but also have some "quality of life" improvements.
For example FF 1 & 2 for GBA with the balance mods added do pretty much what I want to see in terms of rebalancing the gameplay, I like the visuals better than in their later mobile remakes and the interfaces are improved even if not quite up to par for 2004. If I can't find a good hack there are usually GG codes I can use to tweak the experience to what I want in terms of grinding, but it does require some discipline so you don't break the game.

Edit:
They're ARPGs but Ys I & II Complete (aka Chronicles+) are very good updates to the first two games and pretty much make them redundant. From today's perspective they could've been even better though - most of the gameplay besides the combat and movement mechanics and balancing is pretty much unchanged (meaning there's some obtuse quest design, backtracking and dead space, no dungeon maps, you can't sell most items, etc.). 

[alphex]

Well, was FF2 originally beloved? I thought it was considered a pretty substandard game in the original version.

[ommadawnyawn2]

I guess that is a reasonable question. I wasn't playing JRPGs that far back nor am I japanese but I'll try to answer as best I can: Its reputation seems to have dropped since the late 00s or so much like some other initially liked NES games.

From wikipedia:
"Upon release, Famicom Tsūshin (now Famitsu) gave the original Famicom version a score of 35 out of 40, based on a panel of four reviewers giving it ratings of 9, 9, 9 and 8 out of 10. This made it one of their three highest-rated games of 1988, along with Dragon Quest III (which scored 38/40) and Super Mario Bros. 3 (which scored 35/40). It was also one of the magazine's five highest-rated games up until 1988, along with Dragon Quest II (which scored 38/40) and Zelda II: The Adventure of Link (which scored 36/40).[35] The 1989 "All Soft Catalog" issue of Famicom Tsūshin included Final Fantasy II in its list of the best games of all time, giving it the Best Scenario award.[42]"

Since the west didn't get to play it until the PS1 remake from 2002 I guess it never was quite as liked here though, expectations were different and there was less nostalgia involved.

[toei]

Yeah, the SNES remakes of Dragon Quest 1, 2 & 3 are fine. I would call them superior. I can't really think of another example, everything else I've seen was terrible (the budget PS2 Phantasy Star remakes, that abomination based on Lufia 2...)
IMO all portable remakes are intrinsically downgrades.

[wyrdwad]

Isn't the PSP version of FF4 considered the definitive version of the game?

Also, seconding/thirding the Ys love, but I also feel compelled to mention Brandish: The Dark Revenant -- another superb Falcom remake.

Dinosaur: Resurrection, too, was a pretty basic remake of an old microcomputer game, but a welcome one nonetheless.

Vantage Master Portable, too, was a great remake of Vantage Master.

Oh, and Sorcerian Original is a great remake of Sorcerian.

...Basically, when Falcom remakes a game, it's generally better than what came before! Except in the case of Memories of Celceta -- I still like Dawn of Ys better, personally. But Celceta's definitely better than Mask of the Sun, which was the previous canon entry in the series, so even Celceta counts!

-Tom

[Feynman]

The WSC/PSX remake of FF1 is generally considered better than the NES original, thanks to better graphics and many small quality improvements (no more tediously buying 99 potions one at a time from the shop). As others have already mentioned, the SNES DQ remakes are better than the NES games, The DS ports of DQ4 and 5 are better than their original SNES versions as well. In fact, the DQ series has a remarkably good track record for remakes. DQ7 on the 3DS is a good remake with numerous improvements, and while DQ8 is more of a port than a true remake, the downgrade in graphics and sound compared to the PS2 version are more than made up for by the changes to the alchemy system and the ability to make battles run at double speed, which is enough to make me recommend the 3DS port as the better version of the game.

I've also been slooooooowly chipping away at Secret of Mana on the PS4 and... I actually think it's pretty good? There are a few areas where it's lacking, but also areas where some system changes and rebalancing really shines. The graphics are simple, but are a good 3D representation of the original game. I liked the new music from the beginning, and overall, while I can't say that the remake is better than the SNES version, I don't think it's definitively worse either... just different. My initial reaction was a lot more negative, but the remake has grown on me as I've spent more time with it. The nostalgia attached to Secret of Mana has made the negative backlash towards some of the remake's flaws and aesthetic changes worse than it really should be. It doesn't replace the original game by any means, but it's hardly a bad remake.

Seiken Densetsu 1 had a good remake as well! The GBA remake, Sword of Mana, was awful by virtue of cramming in a billion lines of unneeded dialogue and some unnecessary new systems. But there's a mobile/Vita remake called Adventures of Mana that's quite good! Very faithful to the original game, with some improvements. And while the simple 3D graphics are nothing amazing, they're still way better than the monochrome GB.

Wild Arms had a PS2 remake in the form of Alter Code f, and while I prefer the original, the remake is good, and there are many who enjoy it more, so that's a good remake.

I'd actually call the PS2 remake of Phantasy Star 1 good as well. It's very different from the Master System version, but it's goal was clearly to modernize the original game and make it more accessible to an audience not interested in 8-bit jRPG gameplay, which it largely succeeds at. Items that can active an automap for the dungeons means you don't need any graph paper, new weapon types allow for more combat variety, the battle system uses the dynamic over-the-shoulder view from 2 & 4 as opposed to the basic Dragon Quest battles of the original, and you can encounter more than one enemy type at once! They even improved the annoying early game money grind, and the dungeons look more like actual locations instead of being one-color labyrinths.

[Feynman]

Mar 1, 2018 22:46:29 GMT -5 wyrdwad said:

Isn't the PSP version of FF4 considered the definitive version of the game?

Also, seconding/thirding the Ys love, but I also feel compelled to mention Brandish: The Dark Revenant -- another superb Falcom remake.

Yes, good call on those. The Brandish remake is excellent. It's very faithful to the original game, but the smooth camera makes the game playable for the many, many people who look at the snap camera of the original game and (rather understandably) immediately become disoriented. And it has new content on top of that! And since the game wasn't exactly visually stunning in 2D, the 3D graphics are a distinct upgrade.

The PSP version of FF4 is also a top tier remake. The redrawn graphics are actually good and consistent (I'm angrily shaking my fist at you, mobile/Steam FF5/6), it has all the extra content from the GBA version, and includes the mobile sequel if for some reason you decide you want to suffer through it.

[nerdybat]

Is there really a remake of a beloved JRPG that was considered inferior? Be it Pokemon, Final Fantasy or Megaten, when it comes to remakes, they usually improve on something and make the game more polished and playable for newer generation. JRPG is probably the most "remake-able" genre you can get - core mechanics are still fun enough, but old JRPGs often suffer from balancing and UI issues, so fixing and re-releasing the oldies is a no-brainer in this case.

[1upsuper]

I dunno if Dragon Quest Monsters 2 was as "beloved" as some of these other titles (though it's one of if not my favorite game) but the 3DS remake was superb. The monster count was crazy high, and it was such a charming remake. Plus it revamped the non-story key system to make it easier to get the materials and monsters you want in the post-game at the cost of the randomly generated towns. An acceptable trade off, IMO. I put well over a hundred hours into the original and the remake. The remake of DQM1 was good too, but not as good as the remake of 2.

[Bumpyroad]

Mar 1, 2018 20:47:10 GMT -5 mainpatr said:

 Persona 2:Innocent Sin for PSP is actually better than the original. 

I think many were convinced, that the 1st game's remake on the PSP was a quality product as well, even though the original is hardly 'the darling' of the series.

[eatersthemanfool]

GBA version of FFIII(IV) is the best version of the game. Will have fisticuffs over this.