Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2010 14:30:45 GMT -5
"I get the point"? Wouldn't a simple "sorry" have been a more simple and less weasel-y answer? It's ok; being a jerk to everybody isn't against Proboards' regulations. I wasn't going to dredge this up, but screw it. The mods acted beyond equitably in this situation, and he should be a little more grateful.
|
|
|
Post by KeeperBvK on Jan 24, 2011 2:28:58 GMT -5
Sorry for bringing up this exceedingly old thread, but not only is there quite a lot of stuff already mentioned here that should be added/changed, but I've also got some further remarks: Final Fight (1) has a pic of some "Computer cover", whatever that's exactly supposed to mean (PC?), but doesn't mention its release anywhere. And then there's also the X68000 release (I just saw that that one has already been mentioned in this thread), the XBLA-release and probably even some more. And it would be nice to have some more detail on this: "The version featured in Final Fight Streetwise is poorly emulated and not worth bothering with." How exactly is it poorly emulated? And Mighty Final Fight has a "Super Famicom Cover", when it's really a Famicom cover. For the Japanese Final Fight 2 cover it's the other way around. And while we're already at it, the three SNES Final Fights have also been released on the Wii's Virtual Console.
|
|
|
Post by Discoalucard on Jan 24, 2011 11:28:46 GMT -5
Beyond the billions of things that need to be fixed with this (I started revamping it about two years ago and never completed it, plus someone even copy-edited to fix the typos and I haven't re-integrated those yet)...well, for the version of Final Fight on Streetwise, it runs at (at least) half the frame rate, so it's incredibly choppy.
|
|
|
Post by KeeperBvK on Jan 25, 2011 14:44:04 GMT -5
Thanks, Kurt. I was thinking it might need some serious revisioning, but didn't want to say anything. Like the somewhat curious (if only in context of most other articles) treatment of all those ports of the original FF like as if they were truly separate games, when other articles put way more different games into a single paragraph (Asterix XXL on Gamecube and GBA, Ristar on Genesis and Game Gear, etc.).
|
|
|
Post by Discoalucard on Jan 26, 2011 11:30:24 GMT -5
Thanks, Kurt. I was thinking it might need some serious revisioning, but didn't want to say anything. Like the somewhat curious (if only in context of most other articles) treatment of all those ports of the original FF like as if they were truly separate games, when other articles put way more different games into a single paragraph (Asterix XXL on Gamecube and GBA, Ristar on Genesis and Game Gear, etc.). That was a very early approach to the different ports because it allowed for more pictures, but I ditched it early on. Valis is the same way. Both of those are literally within the first half-dozen or so articles I did (and both are sorely in need to updating.)
|
|
|
Post by Ryu the Grappler on Apr 24, 2011 1:52:09 GMT -5
I replayed almost all of the Final Fight games recently and in all honesty, this article kinda sucks. Aside from the first paragraph, there's barely any description of the series' play mechanics and most of the article consists of generic observations about home version and localization differences, plus a trivia section of which characters appeared in later games. Even the observations are not that accurate. The Sega CD port is in no way the closest to "the arcade version in gameplay". It has all the content that missing from the SNES port, but it also has some of the same flaws as well, plus a huge flaw not present in either SNES version (namely slower attacks, which prevents the player from doing the "Final Destruction" technique from the arcade version and it also leads your character more open to attack).
There's not even any mention of the X68000 port, which was the closest home version of the game back in its day. Hell, it's the closest port ever, considering the versions in Capcom Classics Collection and Double Impact are just the CP System version running on an emulator.
The Kunio-kun article also suffers from the same flaws, although it's not as severe, it has a few inaccuracies (Technos did not make the X68k version of Nekketsu Monogatari, it was licensed out to Sharp/SPS, and Acclaim did not alter the GB Nekketsu Kōha game, it was Technos themselves that worked on the alterations), omissions (no mention is made of the black and white Game Boy port of Jidaigeki dayo Zen'in Shūgō), and oversimplifications of each game's characteristics.
|
|
|
Post by Discoalucard on Apr 24, 2011 8:10:33 GMT -5
Uh, yes, I know it sucks. It is literally the second article I wrote for this site, way back in like 2004. Unfortunately I have approximately five thousands other things to take care of, which keeps growing, so it's going to keep sucking until some nebulous point in the future when I can actually fix it.
|
|
|
Post by KeeperBvK on Apr 24, 2011 8:34:43 GMT -5
Now I'm dying to know what the very first article was.
|
|
|
Post by Discoalucard on Apr 24, 2011 8:54:59 GMT -5
The Compile shooter article.
|
|
|
Post by Ryu the Grappler on Apr 24, 2011 17:12:27 GMT -5
Some of the criticisms given in the articles don't even make that much sense. Like this criticism of Renegade. What so "incredibly frustrating" and "awkward" about the controls of Renegade? On an average playthrough I can reach the fourth stage on the default difficulty setting in one life and the fourth stage is only tough because of the one-hit-kill enemies. In fact, the arcade version is probably one of the easiest belt-scroll games ever (if all you care about is beating Sabu and seeing the "ending"). Renegade's controls are not awkward if you read cabinet's instructions and remember what each button does. It's all assertions without any attempt to justify them.
|
|
|
Post by Discoalucard on Apr 24, 2011 22:18:53 GMT -5
It's been years since I played it, but I booted it up in MAME again to job my memory. It still kinda blows, and here is why:
(A) There is a delay before every attack and a recovery window after every attack which I feel is too long to be acceptable. Compared to Final Fight it lacks the snappiness that lends to a smooth feel.
(B) Do enemies get stunned when they get hit? They seem to, but seem to recovery and trade blows anyway. I guess if you press buttons in a VERY specific rhythm you might (??) be able to pull it off without getting smacked back. Final Fight is very specific in disabling in an enemy for a long enough period of time that you can continue a combo (disregarding bosses anyway.)
(C) Are jump attacks even effective at all? You can't even jump forward and attack!
(D) The game runs at a really choppy framerate. This is extremely important to the "feel" of the game, and Renegade "feels" very poorly programmed.
Some of these issues appeared in Double Dragon, but even the attacks in that game are faster (despite the slowdown), plus the vertical arenas in Renegade are just too big and have too many combatants, whereas pretty much every beat-em-up after is much more focused. And I don't even consider the earlier Double Dragons particularly well designed either, but at least they're better than Renegade.
|
|
|
Post by Ryu the Grappler on Apr 25, 2011 1:39:25 GMT -5
(A) I never notice any delays before attacks. Maybe there is a brief recovery delay after delivering one, but then again it's a much slower paced game than Final Fight. I can clear most of the first few stages with very minimal damage by approaching enemies upwards or downwards, as well as using many jump kicks, collar grab throws, and sit-on punches as possible. The only time I think the game truly becomes cheap is when they throw in the one-hit-kill enemies in the final stage and even those can managed if you know what you're doing.
(B) Enemies are stunned with two or three punches, a single back kick, or a singe jump kick. When stunned, you can do a collar grab.
(C) Why yes. The Jump Kick is almost the game's equivalent of the Elbow Punch from Double Dragon. It's very effective against most of the small fry thugs in the first three stages and definitely the most effective technique against the first two bosses.
(D) Framerate seems fine to me, considering how old the game. If anything, it runs smoother than the first Double Dragon, which suffers from severe slowdown when there's more than two enemies.
I never really had any problems with the arenas or large group of enemies (considering only two of them attack at the same time). If it wasn't for the final stage, Renegade would be pretty much the easiest arcade belt-scroll game ever. Yes, it's not as great as Final Fight, but that came out three years later and on a much superior hardware. You might as well compare Yie-Ar Kung-Fu with Street Fighter II.
|
|
|
Post by PooshhMao on Apr 26, 2011 8:49:39 GMT -5
It seems strange to me that in retrospect, Final Fight gets as much as respect as it does.
It introduced the 'player buys a few minutes of playing time for each coin' business model to arcade gaming. Well, maybe not 'introduced' - theme park rides such as Afterburner and Galaxy Force did it too. The thing is, Final Fight gives you the impression that skill plays a respectable role in the game. In reality, the game is designed in such a way that it's not feasible to progress without using the special move a lot, which, conveniently for arcade operators and people standing in line, drains your energy, usually faster than the time required to reach the next food item.
I guess they learned from Double Dragon, which pretty much allowed anyone to finish the game on one credit, as long as they stuck to the elbow move, which in turn meant reduced income.
Another peeve is that the over-simplified gameplay aged worse than the game that inspired it. Final Fight can be good fun for a few credits every now and then, but after ten minutes I start to feel slightly comatose.
Good thing Capcom re-introduced the need for genuine skill (Big Time) in arcade gaming two years later.
|
|
|
Post by Discoalucard on Apr 26, 2011 9:11:35 GMT -5
I dunno, there's nothing else I can say about Renegade that wouldn't just be reiterating my points (the framerate in particular - it technically runs at the same speed as any other game but much choppier, this kind of thing is a particular pet peeve of mine...IIRC the arcade Dodgeball game was the same way), so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. It's mostly just stuff with timing and recovery windows that feel too sluggish. There's a certain amount of "snappiness" I expect with my beat-em-ups, and Renegade just doesn't have that. It seems strange to me that in retrospect, Final Fight gets as much as respect as it does. It introduced the 'player buys a few minutes of playing time for each coin' business model to arcade gaming. Well, maybe not 'introduced' - theme park rides such as Afterburner and Galaxy Force did it too. The thing is, Final Fight gives you the impression that skill plays a respectable role in the game. In reality, the game is designed in such a way that it's not feasible to progress without using the special move a lot, which, conveniently for arcade operators and people standing in line, drains your energy, usually faster than the time required to reach the next food item. That's pretty much the design of any arcade game, though. Final Fight (and to a lesser extent Golden Axe) brought a particular viscernalness, which is why more developers after it copied its design more or less verbatim for the next decade or so, which is where it gets the respect. Still, the whole "special move as losing life" mechanic isn't necessarily just for quarter munching (although it has that added effect) - it introduces a nice bit of strategy (if you get stuck surrounded, is it better to try to fight yourself out and risk losing a huge chunk of life, or take the sure way out and just lose a fraction?) and it works perfectly well in Streets of Rage, a series developed exclusively for console play
|
|
|
Post by PooshhMao on Apr 26, 2011 11:02:06 GMT -5
That's pretty much the design of any arcade game, though. To some extent, but I can't think of an earlier upright game that exploited this so blatantly as Final Fight. Maybe Gauntlet. it works perfectly well in Streets of Rage, a series developed exclusively for console play It never was as much of a problem as Final Fight, because of the relative small sprite size and low sprite count. There's always plenty of room to keep distance from your enemies if you want, which is not the case with Final Fight, which has a very crowded feel in comparison.
|
|