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Post by sunwoo on Sept 13, 2009 22:17:09 GMT -5
But things like sidequests in an RPG have an specific purpose, a specific reward in-game. They either give you a special weapon, or let you know more about the story. A score in a shooter that doesn't really affect anything regarding the gameplay, extras or anything in the game has no other purpose besides showing the range of your skils, or heck, just how much stuff you blow. As you said yourself, is self-fulfilling. Someone skiping a side-quest in an rpg is certainly missing a part of the game, someone playing a shooter and not caring about the score is not missing any segment of said game at all. I strongly disagree with this. I normally hate it when message board discussions degenerate to people saying "graphics don't matter," but this is one of the rare times when it is appropriate. You can not say you've seen all of a game's content just because you've seen every background and every frame of animation. This dangerous fallacy leads to reviewers marking down every dense, high-quality arcade-style game for being "too short," and igames are much more watered-down because of it. (I realize quick resales are a bigger culprit, but reviewers shouldn't discourage short games.) Anyway, in a good fighting game or puzzle game, there is "content" that you still haven't seen after you've beaten the game with all of the characters. There are strategies and nuances that continue to emerge as your skills develop. Those are still content. In chess, when have you seen all of the content? Now the argument is already finished for head-to-head puzzle and fighting games, and we could stop there for Ikaruga since, as retr0gamer says, It's almost a puzzle game For the same reason that you wouldn't be experiencing all of Ikaruga's content if you played through the whole game without switching colors, you aren't experiencing all of the content if you don't try to solve the puzzles of chaining the enemy patterns. I also think that there's more content in straightforward one-player arcade-style games than what you'd see from just surviving through them. Trying to get through on one credit or trying to maximize your score is a completely different experience from just surviving through a game, (have you played a caravan shooter?) and the designers spent a substantial amount of time balancing the game to make that high-level play a rewarding experience. Yes and no, i agree with what you're saying, but the examples Justjustin gave are regarding very specific gameplay features that do unlock new stuff in-game, be weapons, characters, secret enemies and so on. Playing a shooter from start to finish will let you see everything in the game regarding stages, story and such. Regarding all the possible combinations you could squeeze from the combat then yes, that's another story. It's also part of the game of course, but you're neither forced to do them and, once more, they're thecnically not unlocking you something in the game that you haven't seen. What you're talking about here is how dedicated, or casual, a person happens to be while playing a game. Some people are ok with just finishing the game, some study every method, every posible combination of attacks and so on. Both sides have a different approach and both deserve equal respect. Also, if the graphics are not damaging the overall experience on a game then yes, they really are the last thing one cares about. They matter, they just don't make the game. But that's for another topic.
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Post by Sturat on Sept 14, 2009 7:41:10 GMT -5
Yes and no, i agree with what you're saying, but the examples Justjustin gave are regarding very specific gameplay features that do unlock new stuff in-game, be weapons, characters, secret enemies and so on. I'm going to be really disappointed if I can't convince anyone here. Why should superficial game elements like seeing all of the cutscenes affect whether you've seen all of the content more than things that actually affect gameplay like finding all of the special bonuses in Star Soldier? I'm not just talking about mastering a game, I'm talking about consuming pieces of gameplay deliberately put in by developers. You can't say you've consumed all of the content in a shooter in one play through just because you've scrolled past it all.
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Post by sunwoo on Sept 14, 2009 14:17:46 GMT -5
Yes and no, i agree with what you're saying, but the examples Justjustin gave are regarding very specific gameplay features that do unlock new stuff in-game, be weapons, characters, secret enemies and so on. I'm going to be really disappointed if I can't convince anyone here. Why should superficial game elements like seeing all of the cutscenes affect whether you've seen all of the content more than things that actually affect gameplay like finding all of the special bonuses in Star Soldier? I'm not just talking about mastering a game, I'm talking about consuming pieces of gameplay deliberately put in by developers. You can't say you've consumed all of the content in a shooter in one play through just because you've scrolled past it all. Seeing every cut-scene in a game is hardly a superficial thing if said cut-scenes are providing you with more info to the story and characters. Neither is it superficial if you're getting a new weapon, gear or something that will provide a significant difference in battles. It's like skipping Shadow's flashbacks in FFVI, or not getting Gogo or Umaro. You're missing a part of the game, like it or not. I agree that not squeezing the gameplay to it's full potential is also missing something from the overall experience of the game. But once more, i was talking about the very specific examples that justjustin gave, which just operate in a very different way.
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Post by Sturat on Sept 14, 2009 17:16:50 GMT -5
I think it depends on the games you're picturing in your mind. Cutscenes can be very import to the gameplay in an FMV-driven game like Space Ace or Final Fantasy VII, but they can also be completely extraneous. Score is completely extraneous in games like the first Mega Man, but in other games score can literally reflect how much of the game you've experienced. (The first example to come to mind is Peasant's Quest on homestarrunner.com, where there is a set number of events you can trigger, and some of them are optional, but each one raises your score.)
I know I'm in the minority, but I don't understand why adding another sword your inventory counts as content any more than discovering that you get a ton of points for killing the doughnut-shaped ship from the inside. One gives your character slightly different stats, but the other changes how soon you get a 1up. The only difference that I see is that the score bonus isn't on a checklist somewhere. Would I be correct that if there was a challenge mode, and one of the challenges was to trigger that bonus, and the game saved whether you accomplished it, then you would consider it to be content?
Content is any unique element deliberately put into the game; regardless of whether they have unique graphics or text. I wouldn't even call that an especially broad definition.
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Post by kitten on Sept 15, 2009 3:21:56 GMT -5
what have I done
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Post by sunwoo on Sept 15, 2009 3:33:42 GMT -5
It could be worse.
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Post by Smithee on Sept 15, 2009 4:41:32 GMT -5
Aww, don't worry Dual it isn't so bad.
Sorry for my first adverse reaction to the list, I shouldn't have said that when I was obviously being bothered by my day/allergies.
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Post by Sturat on Sept 15, 2009 6:57:35 GMT -5
Sorry for hijacking the thread.
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Post by susanismyalias on Sept 15, 2009 11:14:24 GMT -5
Hey Kitten, you mentioned that you like ambiance a lot in games. I just finished my playthrough of The Dig the other week for my article, and while easily not the greatest point-and-click adventure game, it has a few heaping spoonfuls of perfect ambiance, maybe you should check it out.
Also, do you have a Saturn?
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Post by kitten on Sept 15, 2009 13:57:55 GMT -5
Yeah, I do have a Saturn. Can't play imports on it (yet), though.
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Post by susanismyalias on Sept 15, 2009 14:58:04 GMT -5
Fooey. You should get that on, it's hard to find modchips or region switches now, sadly. But you will find a wealth on there.
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Post by kitten on Sept 15, 2009 15:06:40 GMT -5
I'm thinking about getting that Pro Action Replay Plus that lets you play imports (and I think, although I may be remembering this incorrectly, also allows you to play burnt games easier).
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Post by retr0gamer on Sept 16, 2009 8:42:11 GMT -5
The Action Replay for the saturn will only allow you to play import games but not burnt games. You really should get one since the western saturn releases were pitiful while there's a wealth of great japanese games on the system. It's work modding it as well since some games are ridiculously expensive.
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Post by susanismyalias on Sept 17, 2009 8:53:37 GMT -5
The trouble with that is finding a mod chip. I was really lucky. When I went to go pick up my saturn off of craigslist, the guy pointed out that it had a region select switch, which hadn't been in the ad. I was pretty stoked. As a temporary fix, you could always do the swap trick.
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Post by retr0gamer on Sept 17, 2009 11:18:46 GMT -5
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