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Post by X-pert74 on Feb 1, 2019 15:36:52 GMT -5
Well, to be fair, I stopped watching Sailor Moon after Sailor Moon R, so maybe it changed later on. Those moments with Tuxedo Mask really stand out to me when I think back on the show, though.
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Post by kaoru on Feb 1, 2019 15:40:50 GMT -5
Oh he's certainly helping out more in the show, especially Usagi, which as said is a fair bit more useless in it. But I did remember it being worse than it actually was. And he's indeed shuffling into the background a bit more later, as the show has a hard enough time juggling all the actual important characters already with there being more and more Sailor Senshi. But then again, unlike you, it's not like I can see the show through a feminine perspective.
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Post by Snake on Feb 1, 2019 15:44:16 GMT -5
I would hardly call Sailor Moon misogynistic. It's written and drawn by a women, serialized for young girls. The character archetypes aren't too far off from other female written series, like any popular Korean drama, Twilight/50 Shades, etc. It's been a long time since I've watched the original Sailor Moon, but Tuxedo Mask sweeping in to create momentary distraction happens less often in Sailor Moon Crystal. It reminds me more of Speed Racer getting help from Racer X, more than anything.
Besides, Sailor Moon had plenty of homosexual, gay/lesbian overtones and plotlines throughout the series. Particularly when the series gets to Sailor Moon Super and Sailor Stars.
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Post by silentstorm on Feb 1, 2019 18:35:31 GMT -5
Did they ever saywhat the inspiration for Tuxedo Mask was?
With the throwing rose aspect, it always felt like he was a homage to a Super Sentai character, the very first "sixth" ranger and White ranger ever, Big One, or Banba Soukichi, who loved to make dramatic appearances(always masked as someone else) when appearing, saying he was glad to meet the villains and then throwing a rose at them, even exploding roses: He was a well dressed man, appeared always on time to save the day, threw roses and everything, was a superhero, and appeared in the 70's, makes me wonder if he was an inspiration for Tuxedo Mask?
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Post by eatersthemanfool on Feb 2, 2019 0:02:43 GMT -5
Just because something is made by a woman does not mean it can't be misogynistic.
I can't speak for Sailor Moon in particular though as I never watched much of it.
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Post by jackcaeylin on Feb 2, 2019 18:38:44 GMT -5
I am pretty sure that you guys know all the stuff that I am writing now, but for security sake:
I think people should know that the author doesn't have creative rights regarding Anime. The remake is much more faithful to the source, but the first Anime of Sailor Moon had lots of filler chapters.
To give you humans a picture:
Sailor Mars was introduced in the second episode in the remake series.
Sailor Mars was introduced in the 9th !!! episode of the first Anime series.
Keep in mind that Sailor Moon was released monthly, but the first Anime was released weekly. You can imagine now the high amount of filler chapters in the Anime. You humans probably know how stressfull the creation of Manga actually is. People hire people to do the filler chapters. On theory, the writers of Sailor Moon were smart. They bait the viewer main story stuff for 3-4 minutes, then they started the actual filler, thus they could stretch the episodes and sell them as "non filler". It would not surprise me, if the writers had trouble to translate actual scenes into Anime, due to its ambiguous state. (The last sentence is not necessarily Sailor Moon related)
I also have mixed memories about Tuxedo mask. I think he insulted the main girl regularly as meat head and I think he was way too old for her(could be a dub related problem).
Yours sincerely
Jack Caeylin
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Post by kaoru on Feb 2, 2019 19:04:35 GMT -5
I also have mixed memories about Tuxedo mask. I think he insulted the main girl regularly as meat head and I think he was way too old for her(could be a dub related problem). In the manga, he's only 2 years older, making him 16 and still in high school at the start of the story when Usagi is 14. The (original) anime does for some reason age him into university and 18, which is a bit more unfortunate.
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Post by jackcaeylin on Feb 2, 2019 19:14:40 GMT -5
I also have mixed memories about Tuxedo mask. I think he insulted the main girl regularly as meat head and I think he was way too old for her(could be a dub related problem). In the manga, he's only 2 years older, making him 16 and still in high school at the start of the story when Usagi is 14. The (original) anime does for some reason age him into university and 18, which is a bit more unfortunate.
I don't like to do one sentence posts, but in this case I have to say:
That is weird and I wonder about the reason, but probably I really don't want to know the answer.
Yours sincerely
Jack Caeylin
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Post by kaoru on Feb 3, 2019 7:49:05 GMT -5
I wanna say there's even a scene or two in the first two seasons where friends of Mamoru react in a very "she's what?" way, when they find out he's in a relationship with Usagi. But on the other hand, we also have that episode in SuperS when Fish Eye goes for a school mate of Chibi-Usa and lectures the other two Eyes about the merrits of nubile pre-teen boys.
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Post by edmonddantes on Feb 4, 2019 17:09:45 GMT -5
Ironically I read once that the anime director hated Tuxedo Mask and thus intentionally tried to downplay him, to the point where he has the same powerset series-wide where he apparently gets upgrades in the manga like the girls do (I didn't read the manga so not sure if this is correct). If the show still comes off as a little sexist despite that... yeeeaaah that doesn't bode well.
Tho I've gotten to expect some sexism in anime because even girls there seem to believe a lot of myths. I remember one manga where a kid who was developing early asked a teacher what makes big boobs happen, and the teach said drinking milk helps, so the kid avoided milk (she was embarrassed about her chest cuz kids made fun of her). I guess nobody in Japan ever reads science research because boob size is literally all genetics, and all drinking lotsa milk will do is cause you to get lactose intolerance... kinda surprised that's not an epidemic in Japan honestly.
... Back on the topic of Hbomberguy's stream, I saw another forum trying to throw shade on it by claiming the Mermaids group intentionally targeted pre-teens and had a philosophy that any boy who played with dolls needed to get trans operations (which for what its worth, I think you should wait until you're eighteen before doing severe body modification of any sort unless your life depends on it)... but that forum had basically no proof of this. I think that forum was just transphobic.
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Post by lurker on Feb 5, 2019 10:57:02 GMT -5
Unsurprisingly, all of the participants in the study were straight and most were male.
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Post by windfisch on Feb 5, 2019 16:08:05 GMT -5
Unsurprisingly, all of the participants in the study were straight and most were male. People who conduct these kinds of "controversial" studies do it for one reason only: attention. So ignoring them seems like the best way to shut them up.
Edit: Funnily enough it reminds me a bit of a conversation I had once. It was a woman I worked with at a club where they had gay-parties on a regular basis. Her position was that she could understand male gays but found lesbians suspect, like she could not believe gay women to be genuine. It was really a weird point of view, especially because she had living proof of many women identifying as lesbians approximately every second weekend.
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Post by eatersthemanfool on Feb 7, 2019 23:19:27 GMT -5
Ironically I read once that the anime director hated Tuxedo Mask and thus intentionally tried to downplay him, to the point where he has the same powerset series-wide where he apparently gets upgrades in the manga like the girls do (I didn't read the manga so not sure if this is correct). If the show still comes off as a little sexist despite that... yeeeaaah that doesn't bode well. Tho I've gotten to expect some sexism in anime because even girls there seem to believe a lot of myths. I remember one manga where a kid who was developing early asked a teacher what makes big boobs happen, and the teach said drinking milk helps, so the kid avoided milk (she was embarrassed about her chest cuz kids made fun of her). I guess nobody in Japan ever reads science research because boob size is literally all genetics, and all drinking lotsa milk will do is cause you to get lactose intolerance... kinda surprised that's not an epidemic in Japan honestly. ... Back on the topic of Hbomberguy's stream, I saw another forum trying to throw shade on it by claiming the Mermaids group intentionally targeted pre-teens and had a philosophy that any boy who played with dolls needed to get trans operations (which for what its worth, I think you should wait until you're eighteen before doing severe body modification of any sort unless your life depends on it)... but that forum had basically no proof of this. I think that forum was just transphobic. A common fearmongering tactic among anti-trans groups is to stretch the term "sex reassignment surgery" to the breaking point. Anything from hormone blockers to just letting them live as their preferred gender is treated as literally the same as surgery.
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Post by edmonddantes on Feb 10, 2019 17:16:10 GMT -5
I wanna say there's even a scene or two in the first two seasons where friends of Mamoru react in a very "she's what?" way, when they find out he's in a relationship with Usagi. But on the other hand, we also have that episode in SuperS when Fish Eye goes for a school mate of Chibi-Usa and lectures the other two Eyes about the merrits of nubile pre-teen boys. Yeah but isn't Fish Eye a villain? Its a classic technique in writing to use pedophilia as an easy "look how evil this person is!" so it wouldn't exactly be an endorsement (Though I never got to SuperS so I dunno how its done there) Thing with that girl on that other forum though was she didn't even bring up Tuxedo Mask (I even tried to help her out by suggesting that). Then she turned around and claimed that Toph from Avatar the Last Airbender is somehow the proper way to do a feminist character... you know, the cute loli who obsesses over boys and wants to look cute in a dress. This being one of the exact things she claimed made all anime misogynist. At that point it became clear this poster was just trying (poorly) to rationalize xenophobia, because the only practical difference between Toph and any number of anime girls is that she's written by westerners.
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Post by kaoru on Feb 10, 2019 20:24:00 GMT -5
Yeah but isn't Fish Eye a villain? Its a classic technique in writing to use pedophilia as an easy "look how evil this person is!" so it wouldn't exactly be an endorsement (Though I never got to SuperS so I dunno how its done there) It's not portrayed that way. Just the usual "look this kind of type is clearly the best to go for" way that every one of the three Eyes lectures the other two over whenever picking a victim. Fish Eye is also portrayed pretty sympatheticly in the show overall, almost changing sides even. I don't remember either of these two things. If its part of the show, then it's a footnote to her character at best. I can certainly see why someone would say Toph is a better feminist role model for little girls than the chicks in Sailor Moon. It's really not hard to imagine that standpoint.
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