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Post by megatronbison on Mar 1, 2012 8:49:15 GMT -5
I'd rather people who are terminally ill be able to receive treatment without having to pay for it. Especially given the fact that the quality of privitised health care is often to the same standard as the socialised variety. Probably not a topic worth starting on here though - I'm really not in the mood to argue, sorry.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 8:55:35 GMT -5
I don't understand why people still advocate socialized health care when it never, ever works. Compared to the fantastic job that privatized health care does? The government pays to keep the roads paved, but not to keep its citizens alive. Somehow that seems wrong to me. I know a guy in Canada who got a whole new goddamn eye due to the free health care system up there. That would never happen here. Sure, he had to wait like a year and a half to get it, but that's better than never getting it at all. Or worse, getting it and going bankrupt from the medical bills.
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Post by Ike on Mar 1, 2012 9:10:51 GMT -5
I don't understand why people still advocate socialized health care when it never, ever works. Compared to the fantastic job that privatized health care does? The government pays to keep the roads paved, but not to keep its citizens alive. Somehow that seems wrong to me. I'm not arguing that privatized healthcare is somehow better, but it seems like every time a country socializes its healthcare program it ends up reverting back to an even more expensive privatized program within a few years. It's completely ridiculous that people set up this false dichotomy of "health care must be private or free." It doesn't. Most of the problems relating to the incredible expense of healthcare are endemic to the industry itself. Keeping someone alive and well is a hell of an endeavor. I personally would rather support the government funding research and development of cheaper, more effective methods of administering healthcare instead of just paying for it. The amount of money required is simply non-existent and could be better spent driving down costs rather than buoying them with subsidies. Additionally, there's a severe problem with people going to the emergency room for trivial issues instead of engaging in simple preventative maintenance. Yesterday the local paper ran a story about people going to the ER for toothaches. They get the necessary surgery and it runs them upwards of 600 dollars compared to the 150 or so that a dentist would charge for a filling. And many people default on those payments, which carries the cost over to the people who really need it. The problems lie both at the top and the bottom of this shit sandwich and we're all given the choice of taking a bite or eating a slightly less shitty sandwich that will give us collective atomic diarrhea later. That's anecdotal, and moreover beside the point. When it comes to health care, time is much more important than money. Getting treatment within the limited timeframe of health can have dramatic, life altering impacts on the lives of people with debilitating disorders, especially when their life is at stake. "Waiting a year and a half" for a liver only to die in the meantime is not at all better than never getting it at all. It's the same thing. It's a much sadder thing to me to die on a waiting list because of bureaucracy rather than because of low supply. Human error is a much greater evil than circumstance.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 9:15:06 GMT -5
I don't understand why people still advocate socialized health care when it never, ever works. Because it's "free" is my guess. Or at least that's their impression of it. I've also heard conflicting statements about Canada's system. There are stories like Jason mentioned, or there are cases where you're sitting with your forearm folded in two in an ER for 8 hours. Then again, not much different from the ERs here. In America at least, this is a big problem that will never get solved because of corporate lobbyists for the pharmaceutical companies and other special interests. I hate humans.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 9:29:35 GMT -5
That's anecdotal, and moreover beside the point. When it comes to health care, time is much more important than money. Getting treatment within the limited timeframe of health can have dramatic, life altering impacts on the lives of people with debilitating disorders, especially when their life is at stake. "Waiting a year and a half" for a liver only to die in the meantime is not at all better than never getting it at all. It's the same thing. It's a much sadder thing to me to die on a waiting list because of bureaucracy rather than because of low supply. Human error is a much greater evil than circumstance. My understanding is that it's based on both priority and your spot in line. A person that needs a transplant to live will be given a higher priority over someone who just needs it to be more functional. So if you need a liver to not die, that puts you above eye transplants, but you still have to wait your spot in line behind the other liver transplant people. Not perfect, but still better than in America. I think Obama was on the right track with his proposal from a little while ago. A government option for free health care, while also allowing private companies to still offer their own services. You can choose to get it for free and wait in line, or pay more and get, supposedly, better and faster service. And there's no way to fix stupid, so people using the ER in the manner you described is never going to be fixed.
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Post by megatronbison on Mar 1, 2012 9:35:03 GMT -5
Sadly the lobbyists are now in cahoots with our current government so it's all about paying for a mediocre service. Anyone I know who went private says you are still getting poor service so really it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. It's sad that we actually put a price tag on peoples health. "Civilisation" indeed.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 9:52:13 GMT -5
Sadly the lobbyists are now in cahoots with our current government so it's all about paying for a mediocre service. Anyone I know who went private says you are still getting poor service so really it's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. It's sad that we actually put a price tag on peoples health. "Civilisation" indeed. I'm gonna burn this whole world down.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 10:03:08 GMT -5
And there's no way to fix stupid, so people using the ER in the manner you described is never going to be fixed. Eh, I wouldn't call it too stupid. My coworker was attacked by some kids after he was leaving a bar, and blocked several hits from a baseball bat with his forearm, causing a break. I guess the stupid part was when he used that arm to beat the kid over the head with a beer bottle and punch the kid in the face until the kid escaped...that apparently led to the other bone (I forget the difference between the radius and ulna) fracturing. Anyway he had to wait forever for anyone to see him and his arm was swollen up in a crooked shape.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2012 10:06:15 GMT -5
Eh, I wouldn't call it too stupid. My coworker was attacked by some kids after he was leaving a bar, and blocked several hits from a baseball bat with his forearm, causing a break. I guess the stupid part was when he used that arm to beat the kid over the head with a beer bottle and punch the kid in the face until the kid escaped...that apparently led to the other bone (I forget the difference between the radius and ulna) fracturing. Anyway he had to wait forever for anyone to see him and his arm was swollen up in a crooked shape. No, I meant people eschewing preventative care, then going to the ER when it reaches its inevitable conclusion. I'd say broken bones are worthy of a trip to the emergency room, whether you earned them through your own stupidity or not.
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Post by Allie on Mar 1, 2012 10:17:08 GMT -5
Compared to the fantastic job that privatized health care does? The government pays to keep the roads paved, but not to keep its citizens alive. Somehow that seems wrong to me. I'm not arguing that privatized healthcare is somehow better, but it seems like every time a country socializes its healthcare program it ends up reverting back to an even more expensive privatized program within a few years. It's completely ridiculous that people set up this false dichotomy of "health care must be private or free." It doesn't. Most of the problems relating to the incredible expense of healthcare are endemic to the industry itself. Keeping someone alive and well is a hell of an endeavor. I personally would rather support the government funding research and development of cheaper, more effective methods of administering healthcare instead of just paying for it. The amount of money required is simply non-existent and could be better spent driving down costs rather than buoying them with subsidies. Additionally, there's a severe problem with people going to the emergency room for trivial issues instead of engaging in simple preventative maintenance. Yesterday the local paper ran a story about people going to the ER for toothaches. They get the necessary surgery and it runs them upwards of 600 dollars compared to the 150 or so that a dentist would charge for a filling. And many people default on those payments, which carries the cost over to the people who really need it. The problems lie both at the top and the bottom of this shit sandwich and we're all given the choice of taking a bite or eating a slightly less shitty sandwich that will give us collective atomic diarrhea later. That's anecdotal, and moreover beside the point. When it comes to health care, time is much more important than money. Getting treatment within the limited timeframe of health can have dramatic, life altering impacts on the lives of people with debilitating disorders, especially when their life is at stake. "Waiting a year and a half" for a liver only to die in the meantime is not at all better than never getting it at all. It's the same thing. It's a much sadder thing to me to die on a waiting list because of bureaucracy rather than because of low supply. Human error is a much greater evil than circumstance. Let's not forget the massive amounts of malpractice insurance medical providers have to carry, not to mention that they'll be extra-redundant about their testing (driving up costs even more) to cover their asses out of the death-fear of getting the pants sued off of them.
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Post by Jave on Mar 1, 2012 13:34:17 GMT -5
It's completely ridiculous that people set up this false dichotomy of "health care must be private or free." It doesn't. This is technically true. Socialized health care is far from free. The whole concept works on the basis of everyone covering a piece of the total cost regardless of whether or not you required care, and even then, there criteria for what's eligible, what conditions are covered, and there's still fees associated with the whole thing. It's a prickly topic because the economics really don't add up, but there's an element of human suffering on the other end of the scale. No system exists that perfectly balances that problem.
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Post by Allie on Mar 1, 2012 15:27:11 GMT -5
It's completely ridiculous that people set up this false dichotomy of "health care must be private or free." It doesn't. This is technically true. Socialized health care is far from free. The whole concept works on the basis of everyone covering a piece of the total cost regardless of whether or not you required care, and even then, there criteria for what's eligible, what conditions are covered, and there's still fees associated with the whole thing. It's a prickly topic because the economics really don't add up, but there's an element of human suffering on the other end of the scale. No system exists that perfectly balances that problem. And none can, as it's almost IMPOSSIBLY unlikely that any two people would incur the exact same total healthcare cost throughout their life, never mind the population of an entire sovereign nation.
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Post by megatronbison on Mar 1, 2012 16:39:31 GMT -5
I'm gonna burn this whole world down. Ah dude, I've not heard that one in a while- great film too Re: the whole health care debate- one thing I know is that stress leads to more illness. Guess what happens when you don't have money to pay for your illness? You incur more debt and ergo- the stress comes along with. Personally between debt, unemployment and depression I was stuck in a very vicious circle for a while. At least I had the support of my family and free health care- I can only imagine what someone in my situation in a country without free health care would have done. Sure not everyone will always be stuck in the same situation- but I'd rather my taxes go towards improved and standardised health care than funding incompetant banks, putting on the Olympics and already absurd military budgets.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2012 8:11:33 GMT -5
Sorry to hear that things have been so rough for you lately. Maybe this will provide some good inspiration for new material with your band, though?
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Post by Allie on Mar 2, 2012 10:23:18 GMT -5
Everything and everyone tends to piss me off anymore.
My life has always been a constant "one wrong step and everything goes down the shitter" sort of deal.
I feel (rightly or wrongly, it doesn't really matter) like the majority of people in most modern Western nations have more leeway on that than I do.
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