|
|
Post by retr0gamer on Nov 8, 2010 12:39:15 GMT -5
I used to think that to wrydwad but looking back at it the story is a bit like a poor anime and the battle system is basic and dull. Love the game still but it's not the best game or RPG ever that I once thought it was. I'd take FF6 and 9 from the series over it and well plenty of other games not just RPGs over it as well. Suikoden 2 was the first one to change my mind and there's been plenty more after that like PDS and the SMT games. I think it's just people overrating games that gets to me. Good games really don't age but sometimes people just won't admit when agame really hasn't aged well.
|
|
|
|
Post by justjustin on Nov 8, 2010 13:07:14 GMT -5
Why separate it from the so-called higher/deeper experiences games can offer? Aren't those experiences fun? Uhh... not necessarily? That's kind of the point. At least I wouldn't call The Pianist a fun movie or Kafka's The Trial a fun book. I certainly see your point, but I'm still wondering why this same aversion to the words "fun" and "enjoyment" exist when talking about games. In general, can't painful things be considered enjoyable or fun to some people? Sports involves a lot of physical pain and that's not considered a downside. It's part of the game, part of the fun. People watch sad and serious movies to deliberately dampen their mood. People listen to sad music because they want to feel sad. People go to school for fun, work to limit their freedom and have structure, risk their lives for the thrill. These things are done for enjoyment. However, when talking about videogames I have not seen the "games don't need to be fun" argument used in any case except to excuse games that lack quality, justify their poor mechanics, or explain someone's poor taste in games. While people have made non-fun books, movies, art, etc. since practically the dawn of human civilization, it was only until recently (probably in our whole history!) that people said games don't need to be fun-- in a time when anyone can download game maker and slap together a videogame "masterpiece," when indie games will save us all, when a urinal or a shark suspended in formaldehyde is considered art. It makes me wonder the intent of this idea, if it's really meant to facilitate a new wave of games that will offer more diverse experiences (which can already be done, retaining the idea that they are fun) or essentially a trick used by the untalented indie scene to peddle their crap, convincing us only the smartest, coolest people will like their terrible games. Mostly I'm thinking out loud, questioning where this idea comes from. I don't intend to convince anyone they're wrong for thinking games don't need to be fun. |
|
|
|
Post by wyrdwad on Nov 8, 2010 13:12:21 GMT -5
Retr0: We'll have to agree to disagree, then, as the only thing about FF7's story or battle system that I feel hasn't aged well is the translation. To me, FF7's story is still as deep, involving, and superior to most other RPG plotlines out there as it ever was, and I can't get enough of it. FF6 and FF9 -- both of which are great games -- simply can't compare at all.
As I think I've mentioned once before, FF7's story actually has literary merit, and I wrote numerous English essays on it during my time in college... so I'm a pretty hardcore FF7 fan, and always will be. To this day, every time I go back to FF7, I find more details that I missed, and more character and world development that I never knew was there.
Its sequels and prequels and such, though? Yeah, they all suck. (:
-Tom
|
|
|
|
Post by retr0gamer on Nov 8, 2010 14:30:18 GMT -5
I kind of found it was trying too hard storywise, trying to be clever not not having the writing to be clever. Stuff like calling the main bad guy Sephiroth alluding to the kaballah tree of life but with no real symbolic reason, it kind of felt like they were trying to ride on evangelions coat tails throwing in references for no reason other than it was cool to do it at the time.
|
|
|
|
Post by pkt on Nov 8, 2010 14:54:52 GMT -5
I certainly see your point, but I'm still wondering why this same aversion to the words "fun" and "enjoyment" exist when talking about games. While people have made non-fun books, movies, art, etc. since practically the dawn of human civilization, it was only until recently (probably in our whole history!) that people said games don't need to be fun-- Substitute "interactive digital media" or whatever for "games", if you want. There's nothing in books/movies/art/etc. that "games" can't do, the reason this idea has only come up recently is because, as it happens, computers haven't been around at the dawn of human civilization. In general, can't painful things be considered enjoyable or fun to some people? Sports involves a lot of physical pain and that's not considered a downside. It's part of the game, part of the fun. People watch sad and serious movies to deliberately dampen their mood. People listen to sad music because they want to feel sad. People go to school for fun, work to limit their freedom and have structure, risk their lives for the thrill. These things are done for enjoyment. Well, if you want your definition of "fun" to encompass basically everything, there's hardly any room to argue that it wouldn't be a necessary part of a game, sure. I don't think that's a particularly useful definition (or a commonplace one, for that matter). |
|
|
|
Post by Ryu the Grappler on Nov 8, 2010 16:08:01 GMT -5
Saying that Final Fantasy VII is overrated has become overrated in my opinion.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ryusui on Nov 8, 2010 16:11:58 GMT -5
I agree that a game doesn't need to be "fun" in the traditional sense to be worthwhile, but it does, as stated above, need to be compelling. A game can be thought-provoking, or emotionally wrenching, or just plain crazy enough that you want to see where all the madness goes: it may not provide "entertainment value", but you come away from the experience with something new to talk about. Here's a frustrating misconception I ran into a while back. In a topic on RHDN concerning a fan translation effort for Kaeru no Tame ni Kane wa Naru ("For Frog the Bell Tolls"), we had on one side someone asking the translators to "please edit out all the cursing", and on the other, we had someone saying "keep the cursing in, please". A little lesson about the Japanese language: "cursing" almost is purely contextual. There are few words that are considered universally ugly, and those are used sparingly. "Kuso", literally meaning "crap", is a catch-all for everything from "darn" up to f-bombs. A certain famous anime catchphrase is "ore wo dare da to omotteyagaru?": apart from the informal language used, the only "impolite" part is the "-yagaru" suffix, which indicates contempt for the action described. The common - and, awesomely enough, official - translation is "who the hell do you think I am?", which pretty much catches the spirit of the original, even though there isn't technically anything even resembling swearing in it.So yeah. This is what idiot fansubbers have done to us. If a show aimed at 12-year-olds doesn't feature rapid-fire f-bombs, it's been unthinkably sanitized even if they're showing enough dismemberment to make No More Heroes jealous. (On that front, more recently I encountered someone saying that the Japanese version of NMH was even more violent than the U.S. version. I swiftly disabused them of that notion. -_-  |
|
|
|
Post by wyrdwad on Nov 8, 2010 16:43:49 GMT -5
I kind of found it was trying too hard storywise, trying to be clever not not having the writing to be clever. Stuff like calling the main bad guy Sephiroth alluding to the kaballah tree of life but with no real symbolic reason, it kind of felt like they were trying to ride on evangelions coat tails throwing in references for no reason other than it was cool to do it at the time. Again... we'll have to agree to disagree. Because I disagree. (: I actually think it DID have the writing to be clever -- just, perhaps, not the translation. In the original Japanese, though, it's a masterpiece, through and through. -Tom |
|
|
|
Post by Pitchfork on Nov 8, 2010 16:54:19 GMT -5
Stuff like calling the main bad guy Sephiroth alluding to the kaballah tree of life but with no real symbolic reason, it kind of felt like they were trying to ride on evangelions coat tails throwing in references for no reason other than it was cool to do it at the time. Gold star! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2010 16:59:24 GMT -5
We were all a hell of a lot younger in 1997.
|
|
|
|
Post by TheGunheart on Nov 8, 2010 17:05:59 GMT -5
Eh, The World Ends With You is my personal favorite SE title.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ryusui on Nov 8, 2010 17:06:04 GMT -5
I maintain that FFVII is the one entry in the series most desperately in need of a remake, because the existing translation sucks.
Though that said, I can't wait for them to eventually do DS/3DS versions of FFV and FFVI. Just so I can hear Kefka's best lines all voiced by Dave Wittenberg. :3
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2010 17:10:54 GMT -5
Mog is into slam dancing and slam romancing.
|
|
|
|
Post by Revolver Ocelot on Nov 8, 2010 17:21:40 GMT -5
1. That Darksiders is a God of War clone, when it's actually a quite beautiful love-letter to Zelda.
2. That ANY game with a melee combat system is a God of War clone, especially since Ninja Gaiden, Bujingai and countless other games used similar combat systems introduced by Devil May Cry before God of War, yet they hardly ever call them "Devil May Cry clones". Yes, some games are a bit more "inspired" than others, but it's gotten to the point that any game that combines branching attack patterns and platforming/puzzle-solving is God of War. The fact that even otherwise intelligent game critics like Yahtzee engage in this acute lack of logic infuriates me to no end. Calling anything a God of War clone is like calling Primal Rage a Time Killers clone, implying that Mortal Kombat never existed.
3. That something being a "clone" of something else automatically makes it inferior, regardless of whether or not it actually brings new, wonderful things to the table. "Darksiders? I don't want to play it. Looks like a cheap God of War clone." "Did you like God of War?" "Yeah, it was awesome." "... okay."
4. That JRPGs and WRPGs are in some kind of fierce competition against each other that requires game critics to constantly compare the two and point out the fallacies inherent in their respective designs.
5. That zombies are inherently awesome and their shoehorned insertion into something that would be mediocre without zombies makes that thing awesome.
6. That making references to questionable cake at any point after 2008 is still brilliant.
7. Similarly, that referencing 1.21 gigawatts is also brilliant. No joke, I've unlocked no less than half a dozen achievements/trophies called "1.21 Gigawatts".
8. That the Japanese game industry is DOOMED. Apparently because they don't use as much sepia or bloom lighting.
9. That any game ever made by Tim Schafer is underrated, with the possible exception of Brutal Legend.
10. That Koji Igarashi made Symphony of the Night.
|
|
|
|
Post by wyrdwad on Nov 8, 2010 17:36:17 GMT -5
I dunno, it's working for me with the new Yakuza on PSP. Which is kind of weird, since I don't like zombies AND I don't like mafia/yakuza stories... but somehow, combining the two has made both immeasurably more appealing. I think it's because I DO like absurdity. (:
Also:
I think this stems mostly from game critic... er... criticism. Because a lot of game critics will give a JRPG a low score just because it has anime aesthetics or uses JRPG gameplay tropes... and similarly, a lot of game critics will give a WRPG a low score just because it has realistic graphics and complicated stats. Critics seem incapable of playing a game on its own terms, and reviewing it for what it is... and as a result, they've kind of divided the playing field in half, unintentionally.
So yeah... blame game critics. (:
-Tom
|
|
