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Post by TheGunheart on May 1, 2011 16:54:59 GMT -5
I've run into one that's actually kind of bugging me right now, though nothing major. Namely, that there was no difference in terms of art direction between the 2D Metroid games and the Prime series.
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Post by muteKi on May 1, 2011 17:47:03 GMT -5
I'd say that music games and shmups go hand in hand. If you have the reflexes for Expert guitar on Rock Band, you should be able to handle the average danmaku. Both genres are 100% about timing. I dunno, there's fairly little timing/reflex development in most of the danmaku games I've played. They always seem to reward just staying in more or less just a single spot, and moving only enough to dodge bullets that come close enough to brush against the hitbox. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2011 17:58:53 GMT -5
I dunno, there's fairly little timing/reflex development in most of the danmaku games I've played. They always seem to reward just staying in more or less just a single spot, and moving only enough to dodge bullets that come close enough to brush against the hitbox. It takes a strong sense of timing to know the precise moment to move, and fine control of your reflexes to know exactly how far to move. Also, games like Trouble Witches are all about timing and positioning. You have to constantly move around on the screen to rake in the maximum amount of gold from enemy fire. You also have to establish a strong sense of rhythm for when your magic meter is about to run out, so you can quickly move to another spot and deploy it once more. It definitely does not pay to sit in one spot in that game. |
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Post by Jave on May 1, 2011 19:59:13 GMT -5
I think that for a lot of people, the only time they've actually seen modern shmups in action is on youtube, and I guess I could understand how someone watching those videos might get the impression that "oh my god, there's absolutely no freaking way that I could ever do that." Certainly, that's how I used to think. And now, what with all the practice I've put in, I've gone from being terrible at shmups to being mediocre at shmups, and that's no small feat! Joking aside, I do wish that more shooters would come with some kind of trainer, like something that helped get new players used to concept of protecting your hitbox, and then helps them develop the timing and visual knowledge they need, and get them more comfortable with how it all works. Playing on easy doesn't count, that's just a crutch. Sorry to pimp it out for the umpteenth time, but for me, playing rRootage really helped me out. That's the game I'd recommend to anyone who thinks shmups are inaccessible to the average player. |
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Post by genkifan on May 1, 2011 20:08:02 GMT -5
I have to agree with the rhythm thing, at least for Radirgy, which is the only danmaku I play. It's pretty easy because you use your bomb to absorb bullets, which charges your next bomb, which absorbs more bullets... but you certainly have to find a rhythm to get it to flow and keep your multiplier at max.
With regards to what Jave said, I've always thought the exact same thing about fighting games, they should have some kind of in-game training to get you accustomed to playing the game properly. The closest thing I've ever seen to this is the tutorial mode from Soul Calibur 3.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2011 20:09:55 GMT -5
Absolutely. I think that's relevant to the "making games more accessible" discussion, really. Shmups do themselves no favors these days. You can't count on the arcade to draw in enough of an audience for the home release anymore.
Fighters are pretty bad at this, as well. Sure, SF and MvC have "trials" for each character, but they don't show you how to actually pull off the combos. They just put them in front of you and order you to do them.
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Post by robertagilmour on May 2, 2011 7:15:39 GMT -5
Virtua Fighter 4 Evolution had an excellent training mode tutorial. Street Fighter EX 2 had some training trials that may not have settled a beginner into the game, but it made you much better with timing and combos, it was one of the best things in the game.
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Post by justjustin on May 2, 2011 15:14:18 GMT -5
I think shooting games are on the right track, and don't need to aim for accessibility.
Think of it this way. Shooting games designed for the hardest of super hardcore shooting fans are not only enjoyed by them, but also by beginners. Those hardcore fans had to start somewhere too, and they started by playing those already difficult shooters, because they were so well-designed they practically demanded attention. They were drawn in by great experiences. Conversely, a shooter designed to be accessible and cater towards beginners will be enjoyed by no one in the long run. There is nothing there for players who already love the genre, and once the beginners get their fill they'll want to move onto the shooters designed for hardcore players, leaving the accessible (boring) games in the dust.
So when modern shooters become increasingly more insane and difficult, those developers are on the right track. They satisfy not only the players that enjoy them most, but also beginners. There is nothing in these games that cannot be grasped without a good dose of enthusiasm stimulated by good game design. At least, this has been my experience.
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Post by Jave on May 2, 2011 16:04:57 GMT -5
I can only speak to my own experience, but for myself and my friends, we'd try the already difficult shooters, die very quickly, not know what just happened, and give the fuck up. I'm the only one in the group who kept going, and a big part of the reason for that was because I found a game that eased me gently into the genre.
I don't think the entire game needs to be made more accessible, necessarily, nor that all games in the genre need to go that way, but there needs to be something that introduces players to the fundamentals, and gradually ramps up to the super hardcore stuff later on.
It's theoretically possible that someone could get better simply though perseverance, but for each person like that, I'd betcha there's at least ten more who'll just say "that's unfair and impossible" and never bother to try. Hence the misconception that Kitten spoke of in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2011 16:24:46 GMT -5
Yeah, it's not like every shmup needs to be Sesame Street (though that would be kind of interesting). More like, there need to be (optional) tutorials and gradual difficulties that ease you into the process.
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Post by megatronbison on May 2, 2011 17:22:37 GMT -5
A well structured tutorial outside of the main game a la SFEX2 or VF4 is all you need. I for one started Psyvariar as I liked the idea of getting back into shooters but really, it is like running head first into a wall repeatedly and even aftera good few hours of credit feeding and attempting to adjust I still play a fairly laughable (if vaguely improved) game.
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