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Post by hidetoshidecide on Jun 16, 2011 15:23:45 GMT -5
"People grow old and die". That's the entire "emotional density" (whatever the hell that means) of Passage summarized in one sentence.  I felt more emotions playing the Passage parody I've linked above than the official version itself, to say nothing of the countless good games, both old and new.  And yet people don't do either, in any meaningful way, in most games. That's the value in Passage. |
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Post by derboo on Jun 16, 2011 16:26:50 GMT -5
It's a very, very low value when it does nothing to elevate gaming with that concept. There's no gameplay worthy of the name at all, it's just rubbish.
Even the aging aspect alone has been done much better multiple times in games like Alter Ego, Wizardry, Sword of the Samurai, and Fable (you can't die of old age in all of them, though), with a message that was actually given meaning through game mechanics.
Praising Passage for that "accomplishment" is like praising the invention of a hexagon-shaped tire when everyone else is speeding away in hoverbikes.
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Post by Feynman on Jun 16, 2011 17:23:04 GMT -5
Everytime a "are games art" thread gets posted here a little bit of HG101's soul dies. It's true. |
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Post by susanismyalias on Jun 16, 2011 17:31:13 GMT -5
Everytime a "are games art" thread gets posted here a little bit of HG101's soul dies. It's true. Artistic post of the year. |
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Post by justjustin on Jun 16, 2011 17:46:33 GMT -5
Artistic post of the year. Yes, very nice, but mine is even more artistic because it's a post of a message within a message within a message.  edit: bwuh? where'd megatron's quote tag go? i mean... that was intentional. +10 art points. |
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Post by hidetoshidecide on Jun 17, 2011 7:54:58 GMT -5
It's a very, very low value when it does nothing to elevate gaming with that concept. There's no gameplay worthy of the name at all, it's just rubbish. It's best to think of it as an experiment in what you can do with interactive electronic media. It's the equivalent of a short film- Un chien andalou or something like that. I thought it was an interesting commentary on(and subversion of) gaming tropes. |
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Jun 17, 2011 12:31:23 GMT -5
Un chien andalou is a stupid incomprehensible mess, but that scene where they cut out that woman's eye was kinda cool.
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Post by derboo on Jun 17, 2011 12:41:18 GMT -5
Un chien andalou works for me because it works great as a movie (as in "a piece of moving images", not the novel/theatre-derived formula we apply nowadays). It showed a lot of things people had never seen before that only movies could do. I don't see Passage actually benefitting that much from being interactive.
For me, an "art game" only works if it succeeds at being a game, first and foremost. As for "commentary on(and subversion of) gaming tropes," I'd rather put up stuff like I wanna be the guy or Kaizo Mario World, because they actually do something with being a game. Or even Braid. Although it only really manages to tell its story through the gameplay in the last stage, it deserves praise at least for that one (for the execution and the intertwining of its story with the gameplay, not the niveau of the message).
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Post by hidetoshidecide on Jun 17, 2011 12:53:54 GMT -5
I don't see Passage actually benefitting that much from being interactive. Passage is all about choice and dichotomy. Otherwise, my sense is that the limited nature of Passage was the whole point. You can have low-res pixel graphics, simple chiptunes, and a minimum of playing time and mechanical complexity and still make the type of narrative statement that most big budget games aspire to, but fail at. |
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Post by derboo on Jun 17, 2011 13:22:41 GMT -5
You can have low-res pixel graphics, simple chiptunes, and a minimum of playing time and mechanical complexity (...) I'm not criticising any of those. Pac-man is much simpler in terms of graphics and audio (though with longer playing time if you're good), but it works because there is actually a point to its mechanics. Without that, Passage's "choices" simply boil down to the choice to see slightly different graphic tiles and two different modes of movement. The aging boils down to nothing more than a visual representation of a timer. When Passage is there for the art and music, that can be achieved very well by a randomized video generator. When viewing Passage as a game, however, it is a simple maze game. A horrendously bad simple maze game, despite pretty minimalist pixel art and pretty minimalist chiptune music. EDIT: I also have to correct my statements that sound like a game has to be a good game to be a good piece of game-art. Shadow of the Colossus to me was a terrible, annoying chore to play, but it effectively made a statement by making players to go out and work hard (even moreso for people like me, who didn't have any fun with the gameplay at all) to slaughter all those wonderful creatures to achieve their perceived goal, only to show them later what kind of monsters "they" have become. |
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Post by ldorado on Jun 17, 2011 16:47:44 GMT -5
To me, Shin Megami Tensei games are works of art because of their philosophical nature and global nature of the supernatural aspects. In America and Europe, we focus too much on Greek, Norse, and Judeo-Christian mythology and paint it in a very black-and-white perspective. SMT covers almost every mythology and categorizes demons extensively, along with a critical analysis of human thought. Add Kazuma Kaneko and you've got yourself a masterpiece.
I can't believe the pretentious snobs at the Atlanta seminar completely overlooked SMT. That's narcissism for you.
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Post by robertagilmour on Jun 17, 2011 21:25:59 GMT -5
Un chien andalou is a fun movie ( I can think of several big budget movies that I think are created with far more poseur intent). With the right soundtrack, those type of silent films can be incredible. I think it is unfair to lump these things together just because they are inaccessible to most people. I think a lot of people can enjoy things that seem obscure and obtuse if they are craftily tricked into it. Just like how people enjoy music they would never normally listen to if it is placed well into a film or a game. A lot of people just trust their worst suspicions too much and that prevents them from coming at it the right way. How can you learn to enjoy anything when you stand in the distance and make assumptions about the type of people who make and enjoy it; and take comfort in people who agree with your suspicions?
I've never been fond of art that deals purely in concepts and theories because I dont think they are substantial enough to be satisfying, so I doubt I would enjoy the things discussed in this topic. But I would encourage people to view games as art or entertainment(that is really serious about entertaining) in a way that people should ask for more in the integrity/mastery of every part of a game. A lot of gamers (myself included) get so used to poor or mediocre aspects of games that they just accept complacent game design. Games as art (or rigorous entertainment) should mean high standards in all aspects of their creation, not relying on the same old templates out of routine but always challenging the fundamental aspects of the games to make something better.
Some design choices stick around for too long, there are so many bad scripts and bad voice acting and not enough good illustrators around. "Games as art" may have its dangers of attracting too many people who want to be called a genius, but it may also make people think twice about creating games on auto-pilot if they know there are lots of people who think every single ingredient in a game is important. But every other "legit" artform has plenty of popular hacks. No dominant approach in any medium is going to save us from garbage.
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Post by Malroth on Jun 18, 2011 1:29:56 GMT -5
Surprised Limbo wasnt mentioned anywhere in here yet. The storyline is next to non-existent, and is one of those "interpret it yourself" deals. Frankly, I think using that device is an extremely lazy way of telling the story, since the gamer is essentially writing the story himself. It also seems to me anything thats obviously open to interpretation becomes "WHOAMG AWESOEM!" as far as critics are concerned.
That aside, I LOVE Limbo. It's by far the best puzzle game I've ever played. The puzzles were simple yet challenging, and I actually felt accomplished when I figured them out. Braid? Not so much. Some of the puzzles were fun (up until world 4. Fuck world 4), but most of the time I had a "thank God thats over with" feeling.
I won't go on at length about the visuals. Personally, I think they're stunning and evoked emotion for me, but I can also see how others could easily say just because its monochrome doesnt make it beautiful. Still, best action puzzler ever I think.
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Post by muteKi on Jun 18, 2011 2:07:42 GMT -5
I liked Braid, and found most of the puzzles at least decent, but the star stuff (including the fact that it's possible to make the game impossible to 100% in that regard) was awful, and in retrospect I'm not sure why I did it.
I guess that's the closest thing to me being pleased with the way in which Braid told its story; if the whole point is about the bomb, then, or some other more abstract major intellectual achievement whose negative outcomes outweigh the positive (not to imply that i necessarily thing atomic-level physics has fewer positive than negative applications, mind you), the sheer hell of going through those stars might be intended to symbolize that. What do you get for your effort? Not much aside from a ending that seems to underestimate the player's intelligence due to its lack of subtlety (THE GIRL WENT BOOM. ERR, BOMB. IT WAS ALL ABOUT THE BOMB ALL ALONG. YOU TRIED TO TAME NATURE AND LOOK WHAT CAME FROM IT. YOU SHOULD HAVE KEPT IT FREE. Or something). And what did it cost? Lots of wasted time (How about that star that took 30 minutes of waiting to get to, guys? Did you just restart your game to get the other one you missed the first time?) and probably lots of frustration (even with a guide a couple of the stars were unforgiving).
Whoa, I just made Braid's presentation work on a meta-analysis level. (Well, almost.)
That said, Redder was making the same point more-or-less but a bit more subtly and cleverly, and was much more fun even nearing the end than Braids stars were.
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Post by robertagilmour on Jun 18, 2011 8:50:02 GMT -5
Surprised Limbo wasnt mentioned anywhere in here yet. The storyline is next to non-existent, and is one of those "interpret it yourself" deals. Frankly, I think using that device is an extremely lazy way of telling the story, since the gamer is essentially writing the story himself. I only played the Limbo demo and it was fun, so I really cant comment on the whole approach but it didnt seem to me they were straying from normal videogame values at all other than being slightly offbeat. I'd prefer more games kept the story minimal or simply not there at all, because most game stories come across like an afterthought. Only do a story if it needs to be there, like an rpg, MGS or anything where someone really wants to tell a story instead of feeling obliged to. |
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I felt more emotions playing the Passage parody I've linked above than the official version itself, to say nothing of the countless good games, both old and new. 
