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Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2011 16:59:10 GMT -5
I started R-Type and R-Type II on the Dimensions port, and they seem to have a similar issue. One mistake and you might as well start all over. Granted, it refines your skills for a 1cc run, but not everyone is going to be into that.
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Post by derboo on Jul 26, 2011 17:05:21 GMT -5
Well, if you want to start all over to "refine your skills," most consoles already come with a high-tech solution to support such lofty features - it's called reset button.
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Post by munchy on Jul 26, 2011 17:19:56 GMT -5
In their defense, the enemies in Gradius are far less aggressive when you have none of the power ups activated, especially no Options/Multiples. So the game can get easier even when you just have the piddly pea shooter to work with.
But yeah, it is mega frustrating to get five stages in, only to get a bullshit first death and have all your stuff taken away. AT LEAST LET ME KEEP THE SPEED UPS, DAMMIT
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Post by beach1 on Jul 26, 2011 18:47:59 GMT -5
Save states have saved me so much tedium, I can't even count the hours I would have wasted on bad game design without them, especially in older games. There is no good reason whatsoever to force me through five stages that put me to sleep only because I've played the sixth one for the first time, or it's got an unfair difficulty spike. So, well, my recommendation: Play all the Gradius games, with save states. Exactly. Who's to say that all games were made perfectly and that all the game design decisions were the best ones that could possibly have been made? I feel like some people in this thread aren't taking this into consideration when they condemn the use of save states. |
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Post by Vokkan on Jul 26, 2011 21:00:31 GMT -5
Do you want someone to tell you that you're "doing it wrong"? If I'm playing it wrong, of course I want to know. Dieing after the checkpoint in the later levels of Gradius is a 99% game over. Why do I have to start from the beginning to have a chance again? Because the game is badly designed. Well, that's an extreme scenario (technically the odds just gets better with practice) and you'll be bathing in 1ups by the end. Having a higher risk factor the further you get is all good. And having to start a 15min long game all over again, well that's kind of the point (30min in the case of Gradius 2 and for Gradius 3 it's 45min, but I'm not defending that one). Sure Gradius, R-Type and other old shooters have some seemingly really unfair checkpoints, but if you can't beat the game without using savestates, then you can't beat the game period. There's an element of gambling to shmups that get's invalidated by doing so. Not to mention that it completely invalidates playing for score, which in most games are the primary focus. Arcade games aren't made for every one to beat. They are made with a highscore table to objectively measure player skill. |
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Post by derboo on Jul 26, 2011 21:42:39 GMT -5
And having to start a 15min long game all over again, well that's kind of the point Well, then the point is to waste my time with tedium. There's an element of gambling to shmups that get's invalidated by doing so. Gambling? Gambling means something is determined by chance, doesn't it? Certainly, that's not what you mean!? Not to mention that it completely invalidates playing for score, which in most games are the primary focus. Arcade games aren't made for every one to beat. They are made with a highscore table to objectively measure player skill. The vast majority of Shmups that are really focused on the scoring spawn you at the exact location you died, so there's no point in using savestates at all, anyway. The games that set you back much are mostly the memory shooters and rarely focus on scoring, because giving a possibility to do portions multiple times fucks up the comparability of the scoring, anyway. |
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Post by Vokkan on Jul 27, 2011 5:37:38 GMT -5
Gambling? Gambling means something is determined by chance, doesn't it? Certainly, that's not what you mean!? There's definitely an element of chance (to most games really). The games that set you back much are mostly the memory shooters and rarely focus on scoring, because giving a possibility to do portions multiple times fucks up the comparability of the scoring, anyway. Not at all. That's one of the reasons recovery from checkpoints is really hard. Checkpoint milking is part of the competition. |
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Post by hidetoshidecide on Jul 27, 2011 8:12:44 GMT -5
Simply put, the possibility of having rich experiences-- the kind that are not immediate, that you cannot predict, that take effort, that take patience-- when playing a game is diminished when using save states. And that is all I want to express. There is some danger of this, I'll grant. But as said earlier, I don't obsessively save state so that I never have to replay anything. I use them to minimize the amount of repetition I have to do. The Guardian Legend is a good example. I could never get through it as a kid. I recently replayed it and got through it rather easily by save stating just before every boss. If I died, I used the save state to retry the boss fight immediately. Usually the key was a) putting together a decent run through the stage, in which you arrived at the boss with a decent amount of health and chips, and b) using special weapon X as opposed to special weapon Y. Having already played the stage several times to achieve A, I did not want to continue to do A in order to experiment with different varieties of B. So I used save states to cut to the chase. I didn't skip anything- using save states simply made it as though I'd lucked into the correct strategy on my first attempt. Exactly. |
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Post by hidetoshidecide on Jul 27, 2011 10:57:00 GMT -5
Dieing after the checkpoint in the later levels of Gradius is a 99% game over. Why do I have to start from the beginning to have a chance again? Because the game is badly designed. Exactly. If they'd intended for you to have to start over in these cases, they would/should have only given you one life. |
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Post by Vokkan on Jul 27, 2011 19:48:39 GMT -5
For ordinary games, I'm all for "Playing games the way you find enjoyable", "Making shortcuts through bad game design is forgivable" and "It's experiencing it all that's important". Though I still primarily play for challenge and take pride in my accomplishments. Most games made the last 15 years are relatively easy and made to be experienced from beginning to end, and in almost every PC-game you can abuse quicksave/quickload just like savestates anyway. It's comfortable, and that's how people want to play, striving to be their best in their own pace. That's cool, I enjoy that too. But arcade games are a different beast. I mean, if I meet someone who claims to have 1CC'd Battle Garegga, and I drop my pants and bend over, just to find out the person is a cheating nobody afterwards, I'd be in a pretty sour mood  |
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Post by hidetoshidecide on Jul 28, 2011 4:54:02 GMT -5
But arcade games are a different beast. I mean, if I meet someone who claims to have 1CC'd Battle Garegga, and I drop my pants and bend over, just to find out the person is a cheating nobody afterwards, I'd be in a pretty sour mood Perhaps you should reorder your priorities. |
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Post by Super Orbus on Jul 28, 2011 16:44:52 GMT -5
But arcade games are a different beast. I mean, if I meet someone who claims to have 1CC'd Battle Garegga, and I drop my pants and bend over, just to find out the person is a cheating nobody afterwards, I'd be in a pretty sour mood Maybe you should reconsider your dating habits. |
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Post by killer on Jul 29, 2011 3:49:59 GMT -5
I'd recommend against using save states, because while it feels like you've mastered the earlier levels there could still be room for trying/learning new things to help you later on. Maybe you could find ways to score more points and stock more lives for the tougher levels, or try different weapons at different points to test their range of effectiveness. Even at wits end, you might just try something crazy in the beginning stages and suddenly realize you have a new favorite weapon or something. If you use save states none of this will happen, and you'll hardly ever experience those moments of eureka. Of course, this is just in general. Not all shooters will reward you later on for being inventive or playing masterfully in the beginning stages. But how will you ever discern which ones do and don't if you save state? If you're not having fun in the beginning stages, I'd recommend taking a break or moving on to a different game (or genre) before save stating your way to the end. And about the cheating thing, I couldn't care less if a person cheats through a game, or if it's breaking the game's rules. The point is, if you use save states the game is playing you, instead of the other way around. Once you go the extra length of bypassing a game's rules just to get to the end you're letting the game boss you around. You can't just play it normally, take a break and try later, or drop it altogether and move on. Or to put it simple: do you want to become good at the game or just see the end of it? |
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Post by killer on Jul 29, 2011 4:10:14 GMT -5
This. Gradius has the potential to be a great game, there's just this terrible design flaw. Making the game exponentially harder the more the player fails is bad design. Gradius, to me, is the best example of a game that has become much better with save states. Dieing after the checkpoint in the later levels of Gradius is a 99% game over. Why do I have to start from the beginning to have a chance again? Because the game is badly designed. Save states have saved me so much tedium, I can't even count the hours I would have wasted on bad game design without them, especially in older games. There is no good reason whatsoever to force me through five stages that put me to sleep only because I've played the sixth one for the first time, or it's got an unfair difficulty spike. So, well, my recommendation: Play all the Gradius games, with save states. The game is not badly designed. It is designed in a rigorous and unforgiving manner. Separating men from boys and all that. Power ups in Gradius are a crutch. All a good player needs to make it through tough sections is a speed up or two for manoeuverability and they're always located at the start of the power up bar. And yeah, then there's the dynamic difficulty ranking where the more you are powered up, the more you are met with friction. Clearing the best games in the series on one credit, losing a life or two in the process is extremely difficult, yet entirely possible. Note: I'm not able to do it, but I recognize and appreciate the design philosophy. |
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Post by Discoalucard on Jul 29, 2011 9:05:35 GMT -5
I've always rather liked that whole "losing the power-ups" thing in Gradius. It creates a weird sort of balance - where the game is relatively easy with full power-ups, but one minor screw-up will totally invalidate that and make it very difficult. But figuring out how to beat bosses with minla equipment, and how to maximize the power-ups you do get for the situation, plays a huge part of the Gradius experience, though I certainly don't begrudge people who think it's too annoying. You can easily spend half an hour or more on a single boss as a penalty for dying.
This only really applies to the home versions though, because they're generally easier. The arcade versions are brutal - the only time I've ever gotten to an unwinnable situation was in the arcade version of Gradius II, near or around the final level, the part where the bits of ceiling and floor come flying at you. The game doesn't give you enough to power-ups to avoid/destroy them, so I just chucked in the towel. The PC Engine version is much better in this regard, because if you lose all of your lives, you begin the whole stage over and you can re-power-up, as opposed to resurrecting at the last checkpoint. Gradius Gaiden mostly alleviates this since you can readjust the power bar after every continue.
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