Mega Moses
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Strong vs. Pharaoh Man
Posts: 27
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Post by Mega Moses on Jul 29, 2011 21:40:03 GMT -5
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Post by derboo on Jul 29, 2011 23:39:30 GMT -5
I've always rather liked that whole "losing the power-ups" thing in Gradius. It creates a weird sort of balance - where the game is relatively easy with full power-ups, but one minor screw-up will totally invalidate that and make it very difficult. But figuring out how to beat bosses with minla equipment, and how to maximize the power-ups you do get for the situation, plays a huge part of the Gradius experience, though I certainly don't begrudge people who think it's too annoying. You can easily spend half an hour or more on a single boss as a penalty for dying. This only really applies to the home versions though, because they're generally easier. The arcade versions are brutal - the only time I've ever gotten to an unwinnable situation was in the arcade version of Gradius II, near or around the final level, the part where the bits of ceiling and floor come flying at you. The game doesn't give you enough to power-ups to avoid/destroy them, so I just chucked in the towel. The PC Engine version is much better in this regard, because if you lose all of your lives, you begin the whole stage over and you can re-power-up, as opposed to resurrecting at the last checkpoint. Gradius Gaiden mostly alleviates this since you can readjust the power bar after every continue. Well, I do prefer it to the "either don't care about credit feeding your way through or start from the beginning with each credit" approach of most score-based shmups a la Cave. However, something strikes me as inherently flawed with the philosophy to make the player's life harder for failing. I want a game to get harder when I'm good at it, not when I suck anyway. (The raised aggressiveness towards a fully powered-up ship in Gradius is commendable, but it's not nearly enough to cancel out the effects of the powerups.) It's a really common complaint for me, though. I also think extending the life bar in modern action games is stupid, makes most of them hardest in the beginning, and then subsequently easier. I'd like to see a shmup where you start each try with a fully powered up ship, and it gets weaker the better you play. The only game I know of that really got the right idea with this was God Hand, of all things (although in execution the results appear terribly random here). |
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Post by muteKi on Jul 30, 2011 11:14:09 GMT -5
It's a really common complaint for me, though. I also think extending the life bar in modern action games is stupid, makes most of them hardest in the beginning, and then subsequently easier. Oh my god I'm not alone |
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BulletMagnet
Full Member
"Who PLAYS this stuff?!"
Posts: 138
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Post by BulletMagnet on Jul 31, 2011 14:48:35 GMT -5
I'd like to see a shmup where you start each try with a fully powered up ship, and it gets weaker the better you play. There are actually quite a few shmups that kinda-sorta do this, though instead of powering you down they increase enemies' defenses and/or strengthen their attacks as you get stronger/score higher. In most games it's relatively innocuous, but in some (most famously Raizing's output, particularly Battle Garegga) the player has to consciously keep himself from getting too 'roided up (even occasionally "suiciding" on purpose) to prevent the building challenge from becoming overwhelming. One of the key designers from Raizing has done a few games for Cave in a similar style (Ibara, Pink Sweets, Muchi Muchi Pork), the home ports of which feature an optional "rank meter" to help keep track of how angry the game is at you. |
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Post by Vokkan on Jul 31, 2011 20:38:50 GMT -5
Coming from a week of playing Gokujou Parodius for score, the whole Gradius-design topic feels very relevant.
If you reach the 3rd boss in Gokujou while playing near perfectly, the difficulty of the boss will be through the roof, with near impossible to doge lasers trapping you. Dying at the boss depowers you while lowering the difficulty a bit, but not enough to make it a fair trade. What you can do is purposely suicide earlier at the stage so you can powerup before the now-easier-boss.
Or you can try to juggle a bell all the way to the boss and hopefully turn it green for some much needed invincibility.
Bottom line is, the game is really hard, but really spending time strategizing gets you somewhere.
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Jul 31, 2011 21:16:41 GMT -5
This only really applies to the home versions though, because they're generally easier. The arcade versions are brutal - the only time I've ever gotten to an unwinnable situation was in the arcade version of Gradius II, near or around the final level, the part where the bits of ceiling and floor come flying at you. The game doesn't give you enough to power-ups to avoid/destroy them, so I just chucked in the towel. Were you playing the Japanese versions or the western releases. I'm not sure about Vulcan Venture, since I haven't had much experience with it, but Nemesis is ridiculously hard compared to Gradius. I've managed to get very far in one credit the last time I've played Gradius, but I usually get a Game Over when I reach Stage 3 in Nemesis. |
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Post by derboo on Jul 31, 2011 22:56:53 GMT -5
If you reach the 3rd boss in Gokujou while playing near perfectly, the difficulty of the boss will be through the roof, with near impossible to doge lasers trapping you. Dying at the boss depowers you while lowering the difficulty a bit, but not enough to make it a fair trade. What you can do is purposely suicide earlier at the stage so you can powerup before the now-easier-boss. I dunno, that kind of stuff sounds to me like on a level with having to exploit infinity glitches in fighting games, or killing yourself over and over again in a platformer level with two extra lives. You're exploiting a mistake the designer has made to circumvent another mistake the designer has made. |
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Post by Discoalucard on Aug 1, 2011 8:21:23 GMT -5
Were you playing the Japanese versions or the western releases. I'm not sure about Vulcan Venture, since I haven't had much experience with it, but Nemesis is ridiculously hard compared to Gradius. I've managed to get very far in one credit the last time I've played Gradius, but I usually get a Game Over when I reach Stage 3 in Nemesis. It was on the PSOne version of the Gradius Deluxe Pack, so it's the Japanese one. I don't think I've spent any time at all with the Euro arcade versions, actually. I'll have to give Nemesis a shot one day - the first Gradius really isn't TOO hard, all things considered. |
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Post by kitten on Aug 1, 2011 12:56:22 GMT -5
The arcade versions are brutal - the only time I've ever gotten to an unwinnable situation was in the arcade version of Gradius II, near or around the final level, the part where the bits of ceiling and floor come flying at you. You can survive this part if you died before the checkpoint, it's just hard to do. I had to do it on the PSP, once before :S |
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Aug 1, 2011 13:40:00 GMT -5
It was on the PSOne version of the Gradius Deluxe Pack, so it's the Japanese one. I don't think I've spent any time at all with the Euro arcade versions, actually. I'll have to give Nemesis a shot one day - the first Gradius really isn't TOO hard, all things considered. They jacked up the difficulty in Nemesis by making the enemy behavior more aggressive. They attempted to balance things out by adding a continue feature (which is limited to only three continues if I recall correctly) and sending out swarms of red enemies every time your ship respawns, but it's still harder than the Japanese Gradius (especially if you're trying to beat it the proper way). |
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Post by nintendolegend on Aug 1, 2011 14:58:10 GMT -5
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BulletMagnet
Full Member
"Who PLAYS this stuff?!"
Posts: 138
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Post by BulletMagnet on Aug 1, 2011 19:43:17 GMT -5
What you can do is purposely suicide earlier at the stage so you can powerup before the now-easier-boss. Actually, in Parodius you can also use the "OH!" slot to power yourself down without sacrificing a life...I THINK that also lowers the rank, though a more experienced player would have to confirm that for me. I wouldn't put it in QUITE the same category, as in more than a few cases exploitation of "rank control" techniques is very much out in the open as a necessary technique to play the game "properly", especially if you want to reach a high score. The "Black Label" edition of DoDonPachi Resurrection is a good example - using a certain powerful attack raises a "rank" meter and makes enemies tougher, but also increases your scoring opportunities, so it's up to the player to decide when he wants to take the risk and when he'd prefer to keep things more manageable. |
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Post by Vokkan on Aug 1, 2011 20:04:33 GMT -5
You're exploiting a mistake the designer has made to circumvent another mistake the designer has made. Well, I'm not gonna call it terrific game design or anything, but since Konami has made multiple successful shooter series more or less this way, I wouldn't call it "design mistakes". Actually, in Parodius you can also use the "OH!" slot to power yourself down without sacrificing a life...I THINK that also lowers the rank, though a more experienced player would have to confirm that for me. I'm doubtful, but if that's the case, then could you possibly depower yourself, then suicide (or die naturally, as one tend to do in a "naked" state) for extra rank decrease? |
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Post by Discoalucard on Aug 2, 2011 10:29:40 GMT -5
I despise rank manipulation in games especially because they're hidden in practically every game. One of the only games where it isn't is in DDPDFKBL, so I'll forgive that. And TECHNICALLY some of the Cave ports have it shown on screen - though I don't really trust it, mostly because Pink Sweets will continue to kick my ass even though it's at the lowest rank possible.  Rank is A Thing a Konami shooter but I've never felt it played that big an influence on the game. And in Compile shooters, all you need to do is grab a different weapon and it'll change. The concept of suiciding is ridulcuous. I guess I don't like it because it requires an intimate knowledge of how the gears behind the scenery work, which you will never figure out unless you read about it somewhere else, and then requires ridiculous things to play "properly". Sometimes I feel like Yagawa is the shooter equivalent of Kawazu. |
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Post by Vokkan on Aug 2, 2011 14:05:28 GMT -5
I guess I don't like it because it requires an intimate knowledge of how the gears behind the scenery work, which you will never figure out unless you read about it somewhere else, and then requires ridiculous things to play "properly". Sometimes I feel like Yagawa is the shooter equivalent of Kawazu. That's exaggerating quite a bit. Rank is usually affected by the usual: Raised by powering up, excess powering up, scoreing and time survived. Lowered by death, bombs and missing powerups. If you perform pretty consistently, these things are easily noticeable if you just bother experimenting. Some games have certain tricks though, as in Darius Gaiden, where staying one powerup away from max let's you kill the final bosses much easier. That might take some dedication (less with savestating) to figure out by yourself. Oh, and Yagawa and Kawazu make some of the best games in their respective genres  |
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