recap
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Post by recap on Aug 22, 2006 13:07:45 GMT -5
When you actually think about it, 3D graphics can do all that 2D can and more. Example? Developers can make 2D platformers with 3D graphics quite easily, like Klonoa. But you can't really expect full 3D movement from 2D graphics as it's exactly that, 2D. Notice we're not speaking about gameplay, but about art, though. And real-time 3D graphics just can't replicate predrawn 2D art and animation. 3D and 2D art are completely different things, hence the use of the word "evolution" is such a stupid point to bring to these discussions. Anyway, you indeed can expect "full 3D movement" from 2D graphics. Sprites are, at the end, a single polygon.
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Post by Neo Rasa on Aug 22, 2006 13:19:23 GMT -5
While I completely disagreed with recap earlier, he is correct here youraveragejoe. 3D movement existed with purely 2D graphics since even the late eighties (and MUCH earlier if you want to consider first person vector games like Battlezone, SDI, etc.). Fully 3D movement has been around forever.
It's true about the visceral impact of 2D art, 3D graphics can barely touch that. Personally I feel it's just in this generation that 3D graphics have started to actually look good (Ogoti 2 on the XBox as an example, will always look gorgeous no matter how many years go by due to the lighting/water effects/animation/etc.) and it's just with Half-Life 2/Doom 3 and the upcoming consoles that developers are able to more easily throw around lighting effects and the various other filters that ACTUALLY make a 3D game look good while running smoothly instead of just adding on more polygons.
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recap
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Post by recap on Aug 22, 2006 13:21:39 GMT -5
So you missed the thread's point completely. 2D-gameplay formulas aren't "dead" at all.
Psst. Nintendo didn't "evolve" with the market. Nintendo DEFINED the industry's precepts with SM64.
Sega almost only used polygons for driving games when it "invented" the technique. And for another different market, anyway.
Well, I obviously wasn't speaking about the Western markets, much less about the US one.
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Post by Neo Rasa on Aug 22, 2006 13:28:06 GMT -5
I think you'd have to speak of the western market in a thread like this, since 2D games can still be profitable in the east (especially in South Korea at this point).
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recap
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Post by recap on Aug 22, 2006 13:37:43 GMT -5
"I think you'd have to speak of the western market in a thread like this, since 2D games can still be profitable in the east (especially in South Korea at this point)."
But almost every game mentioned here was Japanese. And the phenomenon (2D's unnatural death) is only applicable to the Japanese industry. If you ask me why Western developers stopped making sprite-based games then the answer comes immediately to my mind - because they couldn't compete with Japanese artists.
And Asian (non-Japanese) devs are starting to change 2D for 3D now.
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Post by Discoalucard on Aug 22, 2006 14:21:21 GMT -5
The PC industry held out on 2D for awhile with certain genres - Starcraft and the Command and Conquers up to Red Alert 2 were all pure 2D, and that was up until about 2000. What about the Civilization games? They were mostly 2D, right? (I haven't played any since 2.)
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grad
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Post by grad on Aug 22, 2006 15:21:54 GMT -5
2D killed itself. It was like, "Nobody understands me," and jumped out a 5-story building.
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Post by ReyVGM on Aug 22, 2006 22:08:08 GMT -5
What the fucking exactly are you all talking about 2D? American developers still use 2D as long as it's pre-rendered.
Are we talking about hand drawn 2D? any kind of 2D? polygon based 2D? 2D planes? 2D what? Let's talk about the real issue here, SPRITES.
*knocks down a table and starts throwing things around*
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Post by megatronbison on Aug 23, 2006 8:08:47 GMT -5
Why is everyone getting so aggressive over this? Chill out :\
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Post by Neo Rasa on Aug 23, 2006 10:01:29 GMT -5
Lost in translation?
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Post by YourAverageJoe on Aug 24, 2006 17:12:23 GMT -5
Sorry, Recap, I just assumed...Anyway, I'd like some examples of full 3D movement using pure 2D graphics. Phantasy Star's dungeons? Sure there was depth and breadth, but no height, so that's not full 3D movement.
Back on topic: I recognise the fact that pre-drawn sprites can look VERY impressive, as was shown with in many fighters of the late 90's, and special effects can also be...special. But even then, 3D is still becoming prettier and prettier, just look at Unreal Tournament 2007, the devs have stopped worrying about making things look clean and polished and are actually "grungifying", as they call it, some pieces they see fit. The demand for that "drawn" look was actually met quite some time ago with a little thingey called Cel-Shading, which is a lot cheaper to animate than sprites could ever be.
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Post by joesteele on Aug 24, 2006 18:52:23 GMT -5
What about the Civilization games? They were mostly 2D, right? (I haven't played any since 2.) Civ IV (which I might add, is a decently selling PC game from I think this year), is mostly 2D. You can zoom out and in REALLY far though, so it seems like its a 2D interface on a quasi 3D world. Movement and control, however, is essentially like all the other Civilization games, but I can't quite tell if it makes it 2D or 3D. With the gameplay aesthetic seen in the civilization games, can you really call it 2D or 3D? Most of the game is simply planning your civilization.
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Post by Discoalucard on Aug 24, 2006 19:01:53 GMT -5
Sorry, Recap, I just assumed...Anyway, I'd like some examples of full 3D movement using pure 2D graphics. Phantasy Star's dungeons? Sure there was depth and breadth, but no height, so that's not full 3D movement. Does Doom count? How about voxel-based games like Comanche?
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Post by ReyVGM on Aug 24, 2006 19:58:14 GMT -5
Someone really needs to note the differences here...
There's 3D graphics, which are polygon based and doesn't have anything to do with movement (Examples: Parappa The Rapper, Klonoa 1)
There's 3D movement, which doesn't necessarily need to be polygon based (Examples: Equinox, Doom, Mario 64)
There's 2D graphics, which are sprite based using either pre-rendered sprites or hand drawn ones. One could argue using flat polygons like on Paper Mario a form of 2D graphics too. (Examples: Doom, Equinox)
There's 2D movement, which means you are only able to move in two dimensions (left/right, up/down, etc.) regardless if the game uses polygons or sprites (Examples: Klonoa, Star Fox 1)
Now, 3D graphics with 2D movement (or gameplay): Klonoa, Star Fox 1 (think about it, it is no different than Pole Position, you aren't really moving; the screen is)
3D graphics with 3D movement: Mario 64, Tomb Raider.
2D graphics with 3D movement: Doom.
2d graphics with 2d movement: Castlevania 3, Mega Man 8.
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recap
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Post by recap on Aug 24, 2006 22:00:13 GMT -5
The PC industry held out on 2D for awhile with certain genres - Starcraft and the Command and Conquers up to Red Alert 2 were all pure 2D, and that was up until about 2000. What about the Civilization games? They were mostly 2D, right? (I haven't played any since 2.) Sure. And you still can find today many adventure-type games from some Japanese developers using 2D-only graphics (or 'real-time anime', if you prefer). And there you have SNK Playmore, as somebody mentioned. And Cave. And a new Guilty Gear is about to be announced this week... But the thread's title mentions 'the 2D giant'; those games are these days almost niche productions. You can also scale/deform 2D graphics to get "height" (Axelay does it... in a way), but I wasn't refering to scaling-based graphics, since one could say that those are 3D techniques, which, at the end, it's true. My point was that, due to 2D's nature, where everything can be predrawn, full 3D movement is possible. It just isn't in real time. If you want a good example of good 3D 'movement' with pure 2D graphics, check Ray Force/Layer section, anyhow. Splendid demonstration of how far scaling routines combined with multiple scroll and predrawn animation can get.
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