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Post by Ike on Apr 26, 2012 12:38:32 GMT -5
That's why I find people who claim that Earthbound (a mere Dragon Quest-clone) You utterly missed the point of this game. Utterly. The fact that you would even put it in the same sentence as the Metal Gear Solid series makes me think you're either baiting or being intentionally obtuse, because, just fucking No. In spite of Kojima's neverending stream of nerds waiting in line to fellate him, the MGS games are pretty fucking low on the 'art' scale. From a story perspective, they straddle that fine line between "so bad they're good" and "is he fucking serious," and the fact that I can't honestly tell doesn't really lend a lot to the cause of seeing these games as art. Earthbound, on the other hand, is a game that delivers a powerful message in spite of its platform limitations. The game totally oozes care and charm on every level, and it comes through in every aspect of it. It makes some of the best use of the SNES's sound capabilities, being one of the few games that really utilizes the console's built-in capacity for stereo. Many of the battle themes have background tweets and whistles that make frequent shifts between the left and right sound channels to create a feeling of being surrounded. For example, this theme plays while you're fighting ghostly or creepy enemies. If you listen to it in surround sound you can hear it pretty clearly. There are things like this in nearly every track in the game, and there are well over 100 unique tracks, which shows a lot of fucking dedication given that this is a Super Nintendo game with limited memory. Speaking of limited memory, Earthbound, on two separate occasions, includes a self-reflective message that is 1) totally unnecessary and 2) totally optional and 3) basically unheard of in games by the time Earthbound came out. It speaks of a self-awareness that is totally absent in the vast majority of games even today. I could go on, but seriously, "mere" Dragon Quest clone? And you're calling other people laughable hipsters? Jesus Christ, there's a reason Earthbound's price and popularity continues to rise in spite of the myriad ways to play it. There's a reason why it resonates so much with people. There's also a good reason why people laugh when they hear the name "Kojima" now. REVENGEANCE, ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME |
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Post by Allie on Apr 26, 2012 12:44:10 GMT -5
Way to piss in Ike's cornflakes, Jonny.
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Post by Ike on Apr 26, 2012 12:49:13 GMT -5
yeah
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Apr 26, 2012 13:29:49 GMT -5
Let me clarify that I was actually referring to a guy (the webmaster of a rather popular Metal Gear fansite as a matter of fact) that I knew who said "Policenauts was more artful game than Metal Gear Solid". I wasn't specifically comparing Earthbound to MGS, but since you're bringing it up.
Yes, I find Metal Gear Solid to be a more "artful" game than Policenauts and Earthbound. It's a product that led to the creation of an entire sub-genre of action games and managed to pull off a cinematic approach to game designing better than anything that came before it. I will admit that Kojima is hardly the greatest fiction writer and his obsession with hour-long cut-scenes do tend to drag all of his games down (even Snatcher and Policenauts suffer from this), but the MGS series more than makes up for it with its game system and all the choices that it gives to the player that allows you to immerse in its world. Do I kill a guard, put him to sleep or hide in a box? I don't really care that much about a game's story as long as the actual game is solid.
As for Earthbound, I rented it once when it came out in 1995 and wasn't particularly impressed by it and I was a huge JRPG player back then who was into Secret of Mana, Illusion of Gaia and Final Fantasy VI. I bought it used years later after reading all the hype from video game forums, and once again, I wasn't really impressed. Don't get me wrong, it's not a horrible game by any means, it's a cute JRPG with a Peanuts-style art style and a quirky storyline, but I just don't see what's so special about it. The game pushes no particular boundaries and honestly, those moments of self-reflection videos that you linked to are actually common tropes you see in many JRPGs (I'm pretty sure at least Illusion of Gaia had a similar scene where the player meets the ghosts of people that died throughout the game).
I'm sorry and I didn't mean to offend you, but I do find Earthbound overrated. I'm looking forward to Revengeance though.
EDIT: Now that I remember, MGS3 had a scene where the ghosts of all the people you killed come back to haunt you. That's a better way to have the player reflect on his actions than a thinly-veiled summary of the game's story up to that point.
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Post by retr0gamer on Apr 26, 2012 14:10:08 GMT -5
Where's my facepalm.jpg again?
I have to agree after reading that, you really missed the point of earthbound. As for MGS being artful, I'll give it points for trying but I'll also giving it points for making me laugh for utterly failing at its attempts.
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Post by Allie on Apr 26, 2012 14:10:13 GMT -5
I still feel like Illusion of Gaia made the most emotional impact of the SNES titles of that milieu, honestly. But then, I love pretty much everything about that game.
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Post by Warchief Onyx on Apr 26, 2012 14:15:26 GMT -5
Fun fact: revengeance is an actual word. It's a very old fashioned word that's fallen out of use, but it did exist. It's not just silly engrish that Kojima came up with.
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Apr 26, 2012 14:18:09 GMT -5
I have to agree after reading that, you really missed the point of earthbound. What "point" did I miss? I'm just saying Earthbound didn't impress me back when it came out and it doesn't impress me now. And yes, I consider Earthbound to be a really hipster game. It has a huge cult following on the internet, with the word "cult" here being the keyword. Internet popularity doesn't necessarily equate to real world popularity and there's a reason why Nintendo doesn't try to push the series that much anymore. Illusion of Gaia was a way better game than Earthbound. The fact it's an action RPG and not a Dragon Quest-clone puts it ahead by default and the storyline is way more dramatic and emotional than Earthbound's, but I also love how the game designers based most of the dungeons on real historical locations. |
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Post by Allie on Apr 26, 2012 15:03:13 GMT -5
Illusion of Gaia was a way better game than Earthbound. The fact it's an action RPG and not a Dragon Quest-clone puts it ahead by default and the storyline is way more dramatic and emotional than Earthbound's, but I also love how the game designers based most of the dungeons on real historical locations. I liked how you basically had your small core group that Will travelled with, and how they felt more naturally bonded than RPG parties in most games. They were designed more as people than throwing a series of character designs/broad concepts (eg : 'cool', 'funny', 'stylish', etc.) at you. Despite the fact that the world was indeed facing an extinction level event, there was an understated class to the game, as a whole. It didn't have to beat you over the head with its narrative and character design the way a Final Fantasy or a 'Tales of' does. |
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Post by Feynman on Apr 26, 2012 15:16:35 GMT -5
And yes, I consider Earthbound to be a really hipster game. It has a huge cult following on the internet, with the word "cult" here being the keyword. Internet popularity doesn't necessarily equate to real world popularity and there's a reason why Nintendo doesn't try to push the series that much anymore. Popularity isn't the same thing as quality. The mass market ignores amazing games all the time. Mega Man Legends, Nier, Crystalis, Anachronox, Planescape: Torment, Wizardry 8, Arcanum, God Hand, Okami, Vanquish, Valkyria Chronicles, Shadow of the Colossus... I could list dozens of games that got ignored by the mass market despite being truly incredible. McDonald's is extremely popular, but that doesn't mean they make the best food. I also take issue with how you imply that Earthbound being a Dragon Quest clone is somehow a bad thing. Dragon Quest has barely changed over the past 20 years for a reason: the formula is extremely good. Dragon Quest is perhaps the single most mechanically well-designed jRPG series, and Earthbound following that formula is not a bad thing. Earthbound is a lot like Terry Pratchett novels. Underneath the humor lies an astounding amount of intelligence and depth. |
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Post by Allie on Apr 26, 2012 15:28:29 GMT -5
God Hand and Vanquish are 7,000 kinds of overrated, IMO.
Hmm, what could they possibly have in common...
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Post by Warchief Onyx on Apr 26, 2012 16:04:59 GMT -5
Earthbound's Dragon Quest style gameplay is exactly why I never get very far into it. That kind of gameplay just bores the holy hell out of me. Shame because I liked most everything else about it, but I can't get past the boring combat.
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Post by Ike on Apr 26, 2012 16:18:10 GMT -5
You can basically auto-fight through the majority of the game. It's not difficult at all if you grind just a little in the beginning.
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Apr 26, 2012 16:19:53 GMT -5
I only wrote that since Ike was implying that Earthbound was a more popular game than the Metal Gear Solid series when in reality not many people outside a really vocal minority on the internet even know about it. The reason why the Mother series doesn't have much of a backlash is because nobody outside its fanbase even care about the series.
True, judging a game's quality by its popularity is shallow, but just because a game is obscure and has a cult following, doesn't mean it's a good game either. I think it's ironic that you (feynman) imply that I'm judging Earthbound by its popularity and then bring up Dragon Warrior's ongoing popularity in Japan as evidence that its formula is "extremely good."
The first Dragon Quest was a pretty good game when it came out, but I think it's pathetic that the series' formula hasn't evolved since the Famicom days just to appease to a bunch of nostalgic fanboys who are scared of any slight change. Dragon Quest VII was a downright ugly game with an archaic game system (seriously, what other JRPG franchises still forces you to bring up a menu just to climb a stair) and I gave up after the first few hours. I never bothered with any of the later Dragon Quest games since I heard they suffer from the same issues. I think JRPG as a game genre is stuck in the 80s (do newer games still use menu-driven battles?) and that's part of the reason why I don't bother with them anymore.
I will admit that Earthbound has quirky original storyline, but "intelligence" and "depth" is giving it way too much credit. We're not talking about science or philosophy here, it's just a cute game about a young boy and his friends fighting an evil alien.
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Post by TheGunheart on Apr 26, 2012 16:30:10 GMT -5
What's wrong with menu driven battles? I fail to see how auto-battle, which is the common "non-action" alternative is all that much better.
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