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Post by Sac (a.k.a Icaras) on Dec 26, 2012 19:55:13 GMT -5
Its hard to say for sure of course, but I'd say Suikoden was probably planned for release on the SNES and was then bumped up to the PSX and it came out and the SNES was superseded.
its actually not too uncommon that a game will start being developed for one system and be switched when that original system becomes end of life or a newer one comes along.
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geishaboy
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Post by geishaboy on Dec 26, 2012 20:06:03 GMT -5
That's true. Didn't Final Fantasy 7 start life as a SNES titles only to have development shifted to the PSX?
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Post by Weasel on Dec 26, 2012 20:28:49 GMT -5
That's true. Didn't Final Fantasy 7 start life as a SNES titles only to have development shifted to the PSX? Allegedly.
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Dec 26, 2012 23:14:13 GMT -5
V Festa and V-Jump Festa are the same right? Yes. But Suikoden was never planned for the SFC as far as I know. The PS1 did came out in Japan in the end of 1994 after all. Feels kinda weird to see both, Suikoden and Breath of Fire II, in a lineup of games based on works by Akira Toriyama or somehow contributed by him (he did some of the mecha designs in Gulliver Boy for those curious).
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Post by Sac (a.k.a Icaras) on Dec 27, 2012 1:37:07 GMT -5
It could also just be that the author of that particular column in that issue of jump simply got his facts wrong (He may have just skimmed and misread press release) and listed Suikoden as being for the SNES when it was never intended to be.
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Dec 27, 2012 3:27:27 GMT -5
Except it doesn't list Genso Suikoden as an SFC game at all. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Post by mpx on Dec 27, 2012 4:55:50 GMT -5
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Post by mpx on Dec 27, 2012 6:24:58 GMT -5
I did more research and found this: (or maybe in 1992?) 1993 or 1994 - Development of Genso Suikoden was started - I know that development of some PSX game started in 1992 so 1992-1993 period is my guess, I havent found hard evidence of exactly date July 28, 1994 - V-Jump 94 Festa - rip of all content from tape doesnt exist ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) (only found Chrono Trigger) Original japanese release date for Genso Suikoden was summer 1995! For some unknown reason the game was delayed. groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.video.sony/Suikoden/rec.games.video.sony/DjB_HFM-a3E/kUrbaXIMo3QJ groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.video.sony/Suikoden/rec.games.video.sony/iPAeinLQu9M/r1qEQscvMmkJ December 15, 1995 - Genso Suikoden was released in Japan 5/10/96. Konami announce US release for Suikoden web.archive.org/web/19961109023742/http://www.konami.com/pr-e10.htmSame year game was shown on E3. www.gamebits.net/e3/e396/10/19/96. Vidgames.com added info and pictures of Suikoden www.vidgames.com/ps/software/suikoden.htmIn US Suikoden was released in December 1996. (Europe release date - March 1997.) EDIT: So now we have blank spaces between 1993 to summer/fall 1995! That a two year gap! When I was searching via Google Groups early posts about Genso Suikoden were from January 1996. There must be something about Suikoden in various US or UK game magazines from 1993 to late 1995. Sadly I dont have a lot of time for digging it on retromags and other sites with scans of old magazines. Also if you have japanese videogame magazines from this period can you search for Genso Suikoden information and post it or take a picture of it? If development started on PSX, then infos, rumors and pictures can be found on multiplatform or playstation magazines. If started on Super Famicom then maybe project had different name? Or there were rumors and generic name like Konami RPG or something similar? If you know or found some web pages with new informations or videos, commercials or other stuff post it here. Help me solve the mystery!
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Post by shelverton on Dec 27, 2012 10:53:42 GMT -5
I found an article on 1up.com that says this: "The creators of Suikoden recognized that brevity is the soul of wit. The game had roots in cartridge-based 16-bit systems -- rumor tells that it was initially designed for Super NES -- and it reflected the same lean, compact aesthetic as 16-bit classics like Final Fantasy IV and Chrono Trigger." Still, they only say 'rumour'. www.1up.com/features/retrospective-secrets-suikoden-success
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Post by mpx on Dec 27, 2012 10:59:35 GMT -5
In description:
AU SOMMAIRE DE CE NUMERO DU MOIS DE MARS 1996 : - COVER DRAGON BALL GT SONGOKU TRUNKS PAN - DRAGON QUEST VI (Dragon Quest 6) sur SFC - DRAGON BALL Z Hyper Dimension de bandai sur SFC - DRAGON BALL Z Legends de Bandai sur Playstation et Saturn - DRAGON BALL GT presentation de la nouvelle serie anime - SUPER MARIO RPG de Nintendo sur Super Famicom - FAR EAST OF EDEN ZERO RPG d'Hudson Soft sur Nec PC engine et sfc - Manga Couleur Slim de KANEKO OSAMU - Manga Couleur Dr. Slump d'Akira Toriyama - Ruroni Kenshin le Vagabond serie anime TV - VIRTUAROID CYBER TROOPERS de Sega sur Arcade - CAPTAIN TSUBASA J (Olive et Tom) All Japan New Generation sur SFC - GO GO ACKMAN 3 de Banpresto Akira Toriyama sur Super Famicom - Front Mission GUN HAZARD d'Omiya Soft 3D sur SFC - G.O.D Growth Or Devolution Rpg d'Imagineer sur SFC - ZENKI d'Hudson Soft sur Nec Pec engine PC -FX et SFC - BIO HAZARD (Resident Evil) de Capcom sur PS One - BATTLE ARENA TOSHINDEN 2 de Takara sur Playstation - TEKKEN 2 de Namco sur Playstation Sony - JUMPING FLASH! 2 de Sony sur PS1 - MOTOR TOON GRAND PRIX 2 de SuSumu Matsushitasur PSone - POWER DOLLS FX de Kogado sur PC.FX NEC - PRESENTATION NINTENDO 64 N64 - ANIMATION Gulliver Boy serie TV de Toei Animation + jeux video sur SF - VAMPIRE HUNTER de Capcom sur Sega Saturn - DRAGON BALL Z NEW JUMBO CARDDAS de Bandai - NINJA 3 de konami 1994 Soluce sur SFC - TOYS STORY de Disney Pixar Critique analyse cine - GENSO SUIKODEN de Konami sur SFC - JUMP manga Ninku, Slam Dunk, Wild half, Mind Assassin, Captain Tsubasa City Hunter Special Jump J Books - Gundam, Fatal Fury Special, ArtDink, Sega Rally, Theme park, Sidewinder : Astuce - Dragon Ball Movie 96 vs l'armée du Ruban Rouge film 10ieme Anniversaire - VIDEO ANIME : Street Fighter II V, Zenki, Ninku Film, Yuyu Hakusho, DBZ film tapion - Ryu Knight Mera Mera Fire Press OVA file Anime Da! Pon!! - ALBERT ODYSSEY Legend of Eldean de Sunsoft sur Sega Saturn - ALICE IN WONDERLAND Rpg de Tokumashoten intermedia sur SFC - JELLY FISH jeux de peche a la ligne de Pack in Video sur SFC - Mimi Test : ultraman sur sfc, GT racing,Aerosmith,.Gebockers, .... - INTERVIEW AKIRA TORIYAMA sur DRAGON QUEST VI Game Designer - GUARDIAN HEROES de SEGA sur Saturn - NINKU de SEGA sur Saturn - NINKU 2 + Godzilla de Sega sur GAME GEAR - DRAGON BALL Z Full Color de bandai new Gashapon - LISTING SORTIE 1 TRIMESTRE 96 NEW GAME DEBUT SCHEDULE VIDEO GAME - DRAGON BALL Z ANIME KIDS COMICS 15 + ARTBOOK COLLECTION + CARDASS PART 1 - CAPTAIN TSUBASA J ANIME KIDS COMICS 3 - CD : MIND ASSASSIN 2, GOLDEN BOY, NINKU, CAPTAIN TSUBASA - DVD CITY HUNTER NEW MISSION STARTS!!! - DQ KIDS dragon Quest 6 SD+ fan arts - FF Colosseum Future factory for Final fantasy Friends FAN-ARTS - Next Gate Chrono Tigger soluce SFC - DRAGON BALL Z ultimate battle 22 sur PS Astuce - BAHAMUT LAGOON de Square Soft sur SFC pub - TOWER DREAM RPG d'ASCII SOFT sur super nintendo pub - COVER END : Street Fighter Zero de Capcom sur PS et Saturn
Mistranslation from uploader? Because date of magazine is March 1996.
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Post by ZenithianHero on Dec 27, 2012 11:20:36 GMT -5
Seems like it is at the 5 minute mark, but it is the B&W pages that is hard to read on there. The date would suggest a mistranslation if the game was out already, the article probably says it was originally on SFC. Any way to contact the uploader for some scans?
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Dec 27, 2012 12:55:59 GMT -5
- GENSO SUIKODEN de Konami sur SFC Obvious typo by the uploader. The only time that video shows any Genso Suikoden coverage is at the 0:44 mark and it's nothing more than a hint section detailing how to trigger certain events. You're just grasping for straws at this rate. I found an article on 1up.com that says this: "The creators of Suikoden recognized that brevity is the soul of wit. The game had roots in cartridge-based 16-bit systems -- rumor tells that it was initially designed for Super NES -- and it reflected the same lean, compact aesthetic as 16-bit classics like Final Fantasy IV and Chrono Trigger." Still, they only say 'rumour'. www.1up.com/features/retrospective-secrets-suikoden-successFact checking has never been 1UP's strongest suit, but that's okay since at least they're clarify "it's just rumor."
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Post by Kid Fenris on Dec 27, 2012 14:29:27 GMT -5
According to an interview with Suikoden series creator Yoshitaka Maruyama, the whole franchise started with an RPG for an all-new console that Konami was going to release itself. The game's storyline was very similar to Suikoden II. suikosource.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11562&start=0After Konami abandoned plans for the new console and canceled all the games for it, Maruyama was called on to make an RPG for the PlayStation. He pitched the original Suikoden. If I remember right, he envisioned it as a prequel to the Suikoden II story. Looks like the first Suikoden was a PlayStation project from the start.
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Post by mpx on Dec 28, 2012 4:33:10 GMT -5
After new round of researching I have found more informations. Information about Suikoden development can be found only on english wikipedia. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshitaka_Murayama Everything that is written was taken from interview from Swedish Level magazine (Nowakowski, Kasper & Kudo, Takashi. (August 2009) "I goda vänners lag" LEVEL #41). His curriculum vitae www.bm.ai/modules/keireki/Interesting that on Suikoden II wiki page the is only small bit about development: Development In the winter of 1993/1994, Konami newcomers Yoshitaka Murayama (writer) and Junko Kawano (designer) were tasked with creating an RPG for an internally developed video games console. What was produced ended up being an early version of the script for Suikoden II, before the console was cancelled, and the RPG project shelved. Shortly thereafter, it was reopened with the intention of being one of Konami's first games for Sony's upcoming PlayStation console. Murayama however, being keen not to rush into the story, wrote the "prequel" script that was used for the first Suikoden instead. This was in order to gain some experience in games development before tackling the Suikoden II story.[1] - source is again same interview from Level For me this information was new, because last time when I was googling about Suikoden series in 2010. and 2011. there wasnt this info. It was added in March 2012. en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Suikoden_II&diff=479814667&oldid=470204186Here is interesting part: Committed from the start to make a franchise to rival series such as Enix's Dragon Quest and Square's Final Fantasy, Murayama wrote a chronological prequel for his story and used that instead in order not to waste the Suikoden II script due to his lack of experience. Unimpressed with their early 3D polygon tests, he opted to make a traditional 2D RPG using sprite graphics.So the first version of Suikoden was some kind 3D prototype, and story script was similar to Suikoden II. 3D was ugly and they decide to sprite graphics. They have lack of experience and decide to make short and easy prequel game. So Suikoden II is true first game, and Suikoden was prequel. This fact is new for me, because I was thinking that they had first made Suikoden short story, and then later expand script and game world in Suikoden II, but it was vice-versa. Here is link to original Suikoden japanese web page: web.archive.org/web/20011030124740/http://www.konamityo.com/genso/
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Post by mpx on Dec 28, 2012 5:30:08 GMT -5
Here is translated interview from Level via Suikosource
- The First Project -
One morning, after six months of working at Konami, Murayama got a call from his department manager.
Quote: He more or less said: 'Okay, drop whatever you're working on right now. Whatever it is we're canceling it. Konami has a new project. We're making our own console, and you have to make games for it.'
A year later the project was cancelled and all three planned titles, an RPG, a racer and a fighter, were canned. This is the project where he first met Junko Kawano.
The RPG he was working on was a story of two countries at war. On either side of the conflict were two childhood friends, featuring a job system with 60 different classes. The storyline was later reused for Suikoden II.
- The Next Project -
Quote: About a week after the console project had been scrapped my boss called me again. This time he spoke just as enthustiastically about the next big project: 'We're going to start developing games for Sony coming console, Playstation'. I thought to myself: Okay, here we go again.
Murayama, Kawano and ten other employees were gathered in a room and had five unnamed projects to choose from, 'baseball', 'racer', 'rpg', 'rpg' and 'rpg'.
Quote: I don't really like either baseball or racing games, so me and Junko chose to do one of the RPGs. But if I had been given the oppertunity to do a shoot'em'up instead I would have done that.
But I quickly found myself in the role as a new RPG director and programmer. And thanks to the fact that Konami didn't really believe that the Playstation would be a success I had almost completely free hands to create whatever I wanted within the budget constraints.
Konami made only one demand of the game, it had to be the first in a series. The plan was to establish their on series on the new market before Square and Enix made their entry.
- Between The Lines -
Because of his inexperience with RPGs Murayama played through other developers games for inspiration and even looked at their source codes.
Quote: Primarily I discovered something interesting in Dragon Quest V, he recalls. Every time you die and get revived at a priest the speed of his dialouge slows down. Perhaps not by much, but it's clearly there in the source code. As if the healing process was a strain on the priest and therefor he spoke a little slower. Small details like that made me feel like the gameworld was more realistic. It taught me much.
He also drew inspiration from his favourite games, Metal Black and Civilization, liking that they were very complex but easy to get into.
He also got inspiration from one of the few RPGs he had played when he was younger, Black Onyx.
Quote: I remembered when I got Black Onyx from my parents, he says. The difficulty of the game made me incredibly frustrated. Some parts took me months to complete. In the last cave the player needs to pass through a series of doors in the exact right order, but without any clues what-so-ever how he should go about it. Personally I wanted to make a relatively easy game that anyone could beat, and that became a driving force during developement. Rather than make a complex game system I wanted to capture people with a dramatic story.
He and Kawano quickly decided not to use the graphical capabilities of the Playstation.
Quote: The early polygon tests I saw were not impressive. I think the technology was still too young. The 3D-models didn't feel like people, they were to expressionless. We chose to make a pixel based game instead, because we would better be able to express the characters, give them more soul.
- A Decisive Misunderstanding -
Playing other RPGs he felt like too much emphasis was put on the hero.
Quote: I often felt that if the hero was the one that moved the plot forward then his friends were the backbone of the game, the ones I remembered the most.
The ideas for the colorful cast came from mangas like Saint Seiya, Fist of the North Star and Captain Tsubasa (a football manga).
Quote: One of my favourite characters was Ryo Ishizaki from Captain Tsubasa. He's actually pretty bad at football. His only strength is his ability to block shots with his face. But with his courage and a wonderful personality you find yourself liking him over Tsubasa in the end.
Before the project could get started the teams reassembled to pitch their ideas. Feeling afraid that his boss would misunderstand his intentions with a game built around secondary characters he reached the conclusion that the 50-year old man had probably never heard of Captain Tsubasa or Fist of the North Star. Instead he chose to use Shui Hu Zhan to illustrate his idea.
Quote: 'Suikoden!' my boss exclaimed. 'An RPG with 108 characters. I love it. Do it.' At first I considered telling him that wasn't exactly what I had meant, but I didn't. Later I regretted that I didn't try to explain what Captain Tsubasa was anyway.
And thus the game had been named.
- Building An Army -
6 months into the developing process the task was starting to prove too much for Murayama and Kawano. She did the graphics and artwork, he programmed and directed.
The other two RPGs were soon cancelled and the staff allocated to Suikoden.
Quote: Without any adjustment period I had been promoted to producer with an entire team under me. I had no previous experience with being boss so instead of being strict I was humble. Instead of arguing with my staff I argued with my bosses.
The relaxed atmosphere led to the team getting a close bond, something noticed by the Konami uppers who periodically sent him people that were experts in their areas, but notoriously hard to work with.
Quote: They thought that Murayama can probably make them like it here, he laughs
Each morning the team would gather and suggest characters for the game, many ideas sprung.
Quote: One sound guy was very persistant. One morning he came in with a drawing of his own character that was a seabird in a sailor suit. I recognized the bird instantly - it was Yokohama Marinos mascot. I tried to nicely dismiss it, but he really couldn't understand the copyright issues we would face. I don't know how many times he brought it before finally giving up.
In order to get people to play with as many of the characters as possible the War Battles were introduced.
Many were also programmed with different learning curves. They were meant to be effective for a time, and then slow down and the hope was that the players would therefor rotate their rosters.
Quote: When one of the main characters dies in the game he has deliberately been programmed to be a bit worse than the others. The hour before the event you are forced to use him and I wanted him to annoy people. But when he sacrifices his life the player would feel remorse, almost shame, and want him back.
- The Final Stretch -
The last 6 months of Suikodens 2½ years developement time Murayama practically lived in his office.
Quote: I remember the very last day when had burned the game to disc and sent it away. Once I got home for the first time in I don't know how long I get a phonecall that tells me they can't start the duplication because of a bug in the master copy. Five of us hurried back to see what was wrong. It turned out to be a minor bug that we fixed in a matter of minutes. But then we had to stay there while the game was burned to disc again, which took hours. Without any joy or excitement we sat there and played Kururin Pa! for Playstation, just waiting for everything to finish. I don't think we said a single word to each other in all that time.
- Suikoden -
Though Suikoden didn't sell too well at first, word of mouth grew and sales gradually increased. The developement team started getting fan mail from players and Murayama personally responded to every single one.
Content with the final sales Konami went ahead with the original plan and made Suikoden into a series.
But by this time programming for Playstation had matured and 3D-models were more impressive. And by this time it was a fact that Square were working on Final Fantasy VII. Realizing that Squares game would be bigger, better and more beautiful than anything else for the Playstation Murayama had a difficult choice to make.
In the end, it was the fans that decided the fate of the series.
Quote: We noticed that players really loved the world and characters we had created. All the letters we got, all the response, were about the story and the world it took place in. People got immersed in our universe and were spellbound by the characters we filled it with. Once we realized that we could only afford to either develop better graphics or develop Suikoden world more the choice was obvious. We chose the world.
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