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Post by Ace Whatever on May 13, 2013 2:09:13 GMT -5
RotD 4 life! (Where've you been all my life Kurt!) While I kind of agree some more text about the mechanics is warranted, the point about VF5 flopping in Japan is irrelevant to the author's opinion. Frank from the Fighter's Generation ranks all console VF5 ports pretty highly and nobody complains about his review lacking the Japanese arcade scene viewpoint.
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Shou
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Post by Shou on May 13, 2013 9:32:42 GMT -5
I'm typing this on my phone so please excuse the brevity of this reply.
I'm a VF expert. I've placed 2nd in Evo 2004 back when there was a lot less info available on the game in English. Since then, I've won a number of tourneys in Japan across VF4FT and every iteration of 5. 5 killed the massive fan base this series once enjoyed. The article misses the point that VF2 and 4 are considered the 2nd and 3rd coming of SF2 like booms.
There are a number of factual errors across the whole article particularly around gameplay components. VF3 wasn't the black sheep of the series, 5 is. 5 only ranks high on score aggregators because the media has been educated to score the series highly since 4 came out. In reality, the console ports of 5 are severely lacking to what was done in the PS2 VF4 titles. The whole social aspect of VF4 which is the main innovation it brought to gaming is totally lost in this article. You could track where players were playing, get a very detailed statistical breakdown of your play (percentage throw breaks, move usage, character win:loss, etc) customize costumes and form clans. Much of this was actually decommissioned in the VF4FT days and moving to 5, almost all of the useful functionality was removed. Also, you never upload movie clips to VF.NET, you saved it and had the option to download them.
I don't have time to write articles but like to read some of the articles here but the quality has definitely dropped over the last few years. I selfishly spend my limited free time on my own endeavors including dumping arcade titles for MAME.
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Post by Discoalucard on May 13, 2013 11:08:10 GMT -5
That's a pretty valid assessment from the arcade perspective RE: VF5 being the black sheep over VF3 (and should maybe also be addressed) but from the perspective of Western gamers, even with the perfunctory knowledge I have of the series, that is definitely not the case. If you've read pretty much anything written by the media (though since you seem to believe they've been "instructed" to give high scores after VF4, I'm guessing you wouldn't take it seriously) or talked to most gamers outside of the arcade circuit, VF3 was never particularly well-liked. On the other hand, Virtua Fighter 5 with its online play has sparked far more interest in the series than it has in a long time, just because it's on a platform, and in a form, that is easily accessible to the Western gamer.
Perception is important in cases like this, especially when they differ across territories, but that doesn't make one more valid over the other, nor (again) does it have any actual bearing on the subjective quality of the game. Virtua Fighter 2 might be far more respected in the fighting game community, and it definitely had a tremendous amount of impact at the time, but the average player is not going to find a whole of value in it nowadays.
I don't think the article undercuts the importance of VF4 either. I saw a few people commenting that they disagreed about the usefulness of some of the home modes, but that's another totally subjective thing. VF.Net itself was addressed, although some of that specific data might be missing because, not living in Japan at the time, we were not able to experience its influence firsthand, and is impossible to replicate nowadays anyway. (And I'm still not entirely clear how data mining, while perhaps useful in certain circles, has such a gigantic impact on the quality of the game either.)
This is a very interesting discussion and I welcome you posting here. Virtua Fighter has been one of those series whose fanbase has differed drastically across the territories. In the US, the initial arcade release dropped a lot of jaws, but subsequent entries were, relatively speaking, ignored, up until Virtua Fighter 4 actually sold fairly well, and Virtua Fighter 5 expanding the audience with online play, however slightly. It always struck me as unusual that games like Virtua Fighter 2 were considered the killer apps for the Saturn in Japan but that clearly ignored the reception of the series in the West, and I think that had a lot to do with the failure of the console in the country. This is touched on briefly in the introduction, and I think some analyzation of this discrepancy would make some intriging reading. I'm really only familiar with the US side of the perspective, so it's good to hear some of the Japanese reception, which I think has always been baffling to most Westerns.
As usual, any other factual errors or noteworthy ommissions will be addressed, if you can point them out.
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Shou
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Post by Shou on May 13, 2013 12:51:05 GMT -5
The series has never been popular in the West and that can be attributed to its very different game system from all other fighters and the lack of understanding/marketing from SOA/SOE back in the day up until very very recently (even today, it's quite limited). Without educating the print media in the 90's, there was no way that the arcade players of the day would understand how the game works except for the very few people on usenet and that translated down to the console market. VF1 excelled in arcades on its technical merits but I never encountered anyone in the arcades who actually knew how to play the game well back then. The notion of knowing a move's frames was simply unheard of because VF was the only game who dealt in those absolutes in the game system which is not really articulated well i the article. To simplify, unlike in fighters like SF2 where you have moves like the dragon punch which has special priority over other moves, VF is completely based upon mathematical calculation of advantage and disadvantage of moves including moving animation so everything can be calculated and understood rather than randomness you see in other games. VF had nothing like DP until VF4 and the introduction of sabakis which only gives certain moves priority over certain classes of attacks rather than sheer invincibility over a number of frames or x move will beat y move. This obviously adds another layer to the mind game as if you know your opponent will use a sabaki then you would use a move that the sabaki does not work against it but your opponent may realize this and try something else. That's just an example of the wonderful mind games (option select) that VF offers over other titles in the genre.
Back to VF2, Western print media only covered the game for its technical prowess not for the gameplay because they never understood it. Let's be very blunt, 99.9% of the pro gaming media then and now are not very good at games. I've written for US pro mags in my youth and the sheer gaming illiteracy boggled my mind. Without marketing spoon feeding them, there is no way a technical game would be properly covered unless you had that 0.1% on staff. Thinking back, VF2 only ever had moves list in the mags and no one covered how to play it or the real issues with the Saturn port about how it wasn't gameplay accurate to the arcade version which cost it sales in Japan even though it was a million seller. In contrast, while SS VF1 had polygon issues galore, the game played 100% accurately.
For VF3, it unfortunately fell victim to this continued cycle of ignorance on how the game worked and very poor arcade distribution/performance in the West with the deluxe machines costing $10,000. Who's going to buy one of those when customers have no idea how to even play it? Few arcades did and those that did, quickly took out the dollar acceptors to attempt to recoup their costs, none ever did. As pointed out, by the time VF3 hit home, it was long outdated from a chronological view even it offered superior gameplay to even Soul Calibur (which is often held up as some kind of gold standard, namco fluke but that's another story) as very few people in the West knew what defensive and 3D gameplay innovations VF3 brought.
I'd argue that VF4 was more popular in the West with its console versions as PS3 VF5 absolutely bombed and the online component didn't come until much later with the 360 port. The VF5FS port came out years too late to make it a contender for international competitive play as the Japanese have long since given up on it. SOA has done a good job of trying to retain attention to VF5FS with money tournaments but ultimately as the game isn't backed by the community as much as VF4 was, it will die out this year but Sega has made good money from the digital model which I discussed with their CEO awhile ago.
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Post by derboo on May 13, 2013 13:38:02 GMT -5
I'm a VF expert. I've placed 2nd in Evo 2004 back when there was a lot less info available on the game in English. Since then, I've won a number of tourneys in Japan across VF4FT and every iteration of 5. Good for you. 5 killed the massive fan base this series once enjoyed. The article misses the point that VF2 and 4 are considered the 2nd and 3rd coming of SF2 like booms. This is ignoring the fact that VF4 pretty much had the arcades to itself when it first came out, to be challenged only by an impotent Tekken 4 half a year later, while VF5 had to go against the titan that was Tekken 5. Anyway, Arcadia charts suggest that VF5 was nonetheless doing well after a somewhat rough start. Final Showdown had its months where it was ranked above Tekken. The PS3 version of VF5 has been reported as doing quite well, the same goes for the download version of Final Showdown. I don't mean to imply that charts and news reports are Revelation, and I might have gotten a false impression from being limited to such remote observation, but I'd really hope for more convincing evidence than "I'm a VF expert" for the claim that VF5 was the shattering disaster you make it out to be. There are a number of factual errors across the whole article particularly around gameplay components. You know, this conversation would be more enjoyable if you'd actually criticize what you claim to criticize. I would love to react to your objections concerning the many factual errors around gameplay components, if you'd actually ever talk about them. Anyway, concerning your remarks about the auxiliary features: EDIT: Oh, hi! now there's something. Gonna read that closely later... The whole social aspect of VF4 which is the main innovation it brought to gaming is totally lost in this article. You could track where players were playing, get a very detailed statistical breakdown of your play (percentage throw breaks, move usage, character win:loss, etc) customize costumes and form clans. "The biggest innovation and most pronounced new feature of Virtua Fighter 4 didn't have anything to do with the mechanics or the technology, but pertained to the social gaming functions. At every arcade, players could purchase a so-called Character Access Card, basically an IC memory card. The idea set a major precedent in Japanese arcades, up to the point where a majority of games would use them a few years later. In Virtua Fighter 4, players were not only able to carry around their fighting statistics, (...)" I didn't know about the clan functions in particular. Might have to read up on that... I probably should also sort out which features went missing in the transition to VF5. Also, you never upload movie clips to VF.NET, you saved it and had the option to download them. Data cannot possibly be downloaded from a networking service without ever having been uploaded onto said service before, can we at least agree on that? I selfishly spend my limited free time on my own endeavors including dumping arcade titles for MAME. Well, rock on. I'd call that a honorable hobby.
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Post by jongoo on May 13, 2013 16:22:51 GMT -5
hahaHA! NOW WE'RE TALKIN!!!
Anyway, shou, even tho I love the game and all, you and I and everyone has a different perspective. VF3 sucks. You miss the days of hitting a fucking button to dodge? Oh and no more floaty jumps...Thank you Sega!!!
Who REALLY cares about Japanese arcades and their social stuffs here in the U.S. of A.?
Oh, and I don't play by using maths. I use courage (sometimes stupidly haha) and my love of the game. Who the hell would want to play the game when you say, it's such a mathematical beauty? Give me break, I hated math (tho I got a 3 on the AP Calculus exam in HS).
And to you, since you puffed yourself up so much, imma do it too (talkin to Sega's CEO, good for you buddy). You wanna chill with this VF enthusiast? You may die of envy in one day lol. When I'm doing Vanessa moves irl. When I'm doing Brad Burns moves irl. And when you realize why I've been called Bruce Lee irl. And especially if I'm feeling evil round yo girl.
sigh, look, Shou, my bad. But ask yourself a simple question, did this article help the game or hurt the game? Keep in mind the audience too.
derboo, if you make changes to the article, can you please go ahead and say the animation in this game is the best? (in your own words of course) (fuck Tekken lol)
EDIT: And the online ROCKS
EDIT 2: I mean, Goh's gangster brutality, Jacky moves like my hero, Vanessa's power, Shun's wild drunken funny unpredictablilty, Pai is so cute!!!, Aoi's noble beautiful grace, Akira is the man! talk about power!, Brad's deadly efficiency, Lion's fingering you all day, Lau's classic Chinese kung fu, Jean's clean, brutal karate, Sarah's taekwondo brilliance, Jeffry angry black man on a tear but still a guy I'd love to go fishing with, Wolf's sheer size and strength (who didn't wish prowrestling was real at some point lol), Kage's deadly ninjutsu trickery, Taka fightin like a sumo boss, Eileen's prancing about like a playful monkey, El Blaze, same as Wolf and Mexicans r coo, Lei a worthy villian for the Wu-Tang Clan
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Post by derboo on May 13, 2013 18:08:20 GMT -5
The notion of knowing a move's frames was simply unheard of because VF was the only game who dealt in those absolutes in the game system which is not really articulated well i the article. To simplify, unlike in fighters like SF2 where you have moves like the dragon punch which has special priority over other moves, VF is completely based upon mathematical calculation of advantage and disadvantage of moves including moving animation so everything can be calculated and understood rather than randomness you see in other games. This is actually helpful! While I do feel I've adressed VF disposition towards simulation in actual space and spend an entire paragraph on how VF2 expanded upon it, the reasons why that makes it different from 2D fighters are a bit understated on the first page cause I kinda took that for granted, which I probably shouldn't have. You can expect some small expansion in that regard in the next few days (you won't see me talking about mathematic calculations, though, cause again, I don't feel that's what this site is trying to be).
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Post by silvastarripper on May 13, 2013 20:46:36 GMT -5
I'd like to note that Virtua Fighter 2 is actually playable in Yakuza 5/Ryu ga Gotoku 5 as a mini-game, which you can actually go online through PSN. That alone blows my mind. Oh, I missed that post because of the page change. That sounds amazing! Is it the same as the version that's sold separately on the marketplace? Sorry, I haven't checked back here in a while. To what I can find through videos, [as I'm waiting for Sega to announce a English version] it's the full arcade game, but in standard 4:3 screen size with some borders to make it feel like you are playing it in the arcade.
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Shou
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Post by Shou on May 13, 2013 21:23:49 GMT -5
Great example here as to why I don't bother to post most of the time. Really, stop with the immature replies. Feels like a slightly more mature version of Gamefaqs.
Like I said earlier, I'm posting from my phone since I'm out of the country. Not easy for me to copy/paste/quote but I could go through each point of the article when I am on a PC and have time. I've posted my credentials so you have an idea where I'm coming from. I've played with the best players from Korea and Taiwan as well during the 4 era. Akira Kid from Korea was a phenomenon back in 2 and 3 who showed the Japanese how to play VF3 in true 3D. It was amazing to see 2 relatively unknown Korean guys come to a single elimination Japanese tourney and rock the natives taking 1st and 2nd place.
As for VF4 having the scene to itself, no other fighter could compete with the series. Namco's designers have feared VF until 5 flopped. You can google some interviews which say the same. Tekken had never trounced VF in its home country until VF5 released. Also, Arcadia's rankings are taken from a very small sampling of arcades, not very accurate. I can get a quote on that from the former editor, Sawatari, if you want something to back that up.
To save replays in VF4/5, you hit a button combination which sends a command to the local VF.NET server to store the data for this match which then uploads to the main servers. This infra changed quite a bit with VF5 as there are dedicated terminals plus local servers in each arcade. In VF5, this service is only available to players with a premium account which allows high res video downloads.
Online vs for any fighter shouldn't be taken seriously. VF in particular is not playable at a competent level as you can't even perform certain techniques. The timing of online play will also screw with players if you play offline/in the arcade.
If you want more gameplay examples, we can go through them. There are so many things the series has pioneered like different weight classes causing varying levels of floats and then having to watch foot stance to see if certain moves will hit during a combo, which was eluded to poorly. Yes, you can be harder to throw but the main point is that it introduced a new concept which hasn't been copied to date. Just continuing off the top of my head, VF3's undulation (uneven ground) was removed due to complicating frame advantage/disadvantage as it was never clear how this worked and would result in inconsistencies to players which is why flat stages were preferred for competitive play. While we're on VF3, it's interesting to note at the location tests that Taka and Jeffry has flexing muscles and fat ripples in the former's case which were taken out of the final version due to hardware issues.
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Post by jongoo on May 14, 2013 4:21:20 GMT -5
OK fine...I'll "grow up" a bit. It really feels like you want this site to go into all the intricacies of the game. But I think what we're trying to do here is to get you to see that this isn't a fighting game fansite or anything like that. Sure, some of the details you've finally given, they would help derboo expand the article but in my humble opinion, only a handful of key (and perhaps pretty easily apparent) details are really needed to give people a good understanding of what the series is about. And you don't have to be a tournament level player to have a blast with these games, believe me. Sure we may not know that you could use x option select to shut down a certain style of offense or what have you, but we're still having fun, get it?
To me, you're coming off as someone who's obsessed with VF (nothing wrong with that) but don't think others will want to try the game more because of an article you may finally take the time to write. The details you want in there are, to be quite frank, boring and unnecessary for someone interested in trying the series. Again, keep in mind, most people who come here spend their gaming with a variety of genres. And I mean, is it so hard to believe that an unskilled player can't enjoy the game a lot, perhaps having even more fun than a jaded veteran? And as for the idea that the article has to be a hyperthorough examination of the series for its own sake, well, once again, that's not what this site does.
And yeah, I understand this is regarded as a tough series and that you think the article does a disservice by glossing over why. But really, in some sense, this is not a tough series in that it's hard to be really good for everybody. Sure, that's why a lot of people give up but not even virtuafighter.com will convince them to love the game with, "OMG it's so deep for xyz reasons." But if you simply stick to it, you will find good games eventually by finding other fans of similar skill and you will have the thrills that come from winning those close battles. This article may very well spark this in a gamer who has yet to try it. As for my credentials, never won a set at WNF the two times I was there but I always gave good games (the last one was super close, sigh). And I've taken my share of matches from solid players in casuals. And yes, I do know we suck compared to Japan, Korea, etc.
EDIT: So compared to you, I obviously suck at VF. But that doesn't stop me from enjoying the game. And I enjoyed the article; I feel that if anything, it only helps the series. Sure it has its criticisms here and there but overall, it's good for VF.
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Post by derboo on May 14, 2013 5:28:25 GMT -5
I've posted my credentials so you have an idea where I'm coming from. That's fair, but you have to admit that it might come off as a bit obnoxious when you got three posts with the basic gist of "you suck, I rule," without even touching on the subject you're supposedly criticizing. (Which is not to say that details on the VF.NET features are unwelcome.) Note that I wrote my first reply before seeing your fourth post. To save replays in VF4/5, you hit a button combination which sends a command to the local VF.NET server to store the data for this match which then uploads to the main servers. This infra changed quite a bit with VF5 as there are dedicated terminals plus local servers in each arcade. So, what difference does that make exactly? Can replays in VF5 only be downloaded from the local terminal? Online vs for any fighter shouldn't be taken seriously. VF in particular is not playable at a competent level as you can't even perform certain techniques. The timing of online play will also screw with players if you play offline/in the arcade. This (and some of the more minute details you've mentioned) all bogs down whether you describe its purpose as a game vs. its purpose as professional e-sports equipment. The latter we're just not that focused on. Let me try to exemplify this with Old World football (which some may call soccer), in hope you're not also a national league player in that: If you're going to introduce that game to someone in the hope they might get a bit into it and start kicking a few balls, you're not going to describe the exact requirements for weight and measurements of the ball in international contests, nor are you running down all the intricacies of offside and strategies to bait the opponent into it. (...) having to watch foot stance to see if certain moves will hit during a combo, which was eluded to poorly. I don't really feel it was, though specifically mentioning combos in that paragraph sure can't hurt. Yes, you can be harder to throw but the main point is that it introduced a new concept which hasn't been copied to date. I've talked about how Virtua Fighter in general was unique for its focus on simulation. Repeating that assessment for each new introduced element makes articles sound overly gushing, which I've observed is something not few readers are somewhat allergic to. Just continuing off the top of my head, VF3's undulation (uneven ground) was removed due to complicating frame advantage/disadvantage as it was never clear how this worked and would result in inconsistencies to players which is why flat stages were preferred for competitive play. That makes another sentence worth being added, as it does have implications on non-mathematic level play, too.
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Post by derboo on May 17, 2013 14:11:48 GMT -5
Changes! They have been made.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2013 0:05:14 GMT -5
While all of Shou's information is interesting and valuable, I don't it has much purpose in the context of a HG101 page, the implied intent of which is to provide a basic general overview of each game for the uninitiated. They're so people will have some idea of which games are worth checking out and how they all fit together in the historical continuum. I don't consider them reviews nor guides, but something in between.
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Post by jongoo on Jun 3, 2013 9:33:53 GMT -5
derboo, reread the article and one thing missing that I think is essential is covering how awesome the tutorials in VF4E for PS2 are. I mean, it covers everything from the basics to advanced tactics. Plus characters each have there own tutorials that guide the player into using some of their best strategies. Also, useful combo challenges. It's so good that people still recommend going back and going through it to beginners. Not even the tutorial in VF5FS comes close.
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Post by jason1969 on Jun 23, 2015 5:25:06 GMT -5
Hello! I have recently been thinking about Virtua Fighter 2, a game I loved so many years back. I never kept up with any of the versions after, so it is interesting to read the opinions. I think VF2 was a perfect game, not a button smasher like Tekken, but a true thinking and skill challenge. I was thinking of buying an old Sega Dreamcast and the game to play with my son, but then wanted to do research on best versions/systems which is how I found this thread.
So the (not-so) simple question to you experts: It's 2015, what is the best home version of Virtua Fighter today for a non-hardcore gamer type who loved VF2? A used Dreamcast and VF2 can be had for around $50. A PS2 and VF4: Evolution is about the same. Or is it really worth it to get VF5 on an Xbox or PS3? I am leaning towards a PS2 and VF4E, but there is something about the simple elegance of VF2 that I hope to share with my son. Is there a version of VF2 on a modern console?
Thanks so much, I really appreciate the knowledge shared here!
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