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Post by Colonel Kurtz on Mar 2, 2014 13:30:18 GMT -5
Wow. They are NOT joking about their belief that every arcade game was conceived with 1CC in mind. It's baffling. At that point, that belief system is so disproven, they should litterally rename the site "Church of Shmups", because their beliefs seem to be born out of faith in an ideal, more than based on observation - and arcade developpers' word.. I'm befuddled. How did they reach such a conclusion? Why? Really strange belief. I fear they have lost their way somehow. The vocabulary they use is unlike any other gaming site I know. (A game is not beaten or enjoyed or even mastered, it is to be "learned".) They went to extremes and ran with it, didn't they? Whatever, I remember devouring their reviews database years ago, they do a fine job. The forums OTOH are... zealous in their philosophy. Wow. But that's forums for you, I guess. this was litterally the first forum topic I clicked on. Ouch.
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Post by Super Orbus on Mar 2, 2014 14:14:15 GMT -5
I dunno. Most of what's said in that thread makes sense to me. This is not to say that every arcade game was designed with 1CC in mind. The question is whether a 1CC is possible or not. Their thinking is that most games are clearable on a single credit. It may require inhuman levels of practice and precision, but for many of the members over there, I think that's an incentive, rather than a drawback.
Unless a game has blatantly unfair elements, like completely unavoidable deaths, it should be possible to clear it in a single credit. Assuming theoretically perfect or near-perfect execution. As mentioned in that thread, games with a lot of randomization are not good candidates for 1CC (at least not reliably). Most shmups have fixed enemy placements on every playthrough, so clearing them largely relies on knowing when and where all the enemies will appear, and charting out a safe path to get through them. After that it's just sticking to the plan and not messing up. Now whether that's actually any fun, or an exercise in masochism is down to personal preference.
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Post by Joseph Joestar on Mar 2, 2014 14:24:15 GMT -5
I dunno. Most of what's said in that thread makes sense to me. This is not to say that every arcade game was designed with 1CC in mind. The question is whether a 1CC is possible or not. Their thinking is that most games are clearable on a single credit. It may require inhuman levels of practice and precision, but for many of the members over there, I think that's an incentive, rather than a drawback. Unless a game has blatantly unfair elements, like completely unavoidable deaths, it should be possible to clear it in a single credit. Assuming theoretically perfect or near-perfect execution. Now whether that's actually any fun, or an exercise in masochism is down to personal preference. As mentioned in that thread, games with a lot of randomization are not good candidates for 1CC (at least not reliably). Most shmups have fixed enemy placements on every playthrough, so clearing them largely relies on knowing when and where all the enemies will appear, and charting out a safe path to get through them. After that it's just sticking to the plan and not messing up. This is my belief. Although to be honest I would guess most of the devs would either be incredibly flattered by or laughing their asses off at people like this.
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Post by justjustin on Mar 2, 2014 14:31:07 GMT -5
It's an understandable belief from my perspective. Most of the classic games remaining in Japanese arcades today have survived a decades-long process of elimination. They are the games that made money back then and continue to make money now. People who hit up arcades in Japan today are experiencing the ideal form instead of the reality it was: a barrage of novelties that faded out of existence. I visited 20+ arcades myself while I lived there and that's the impression I got. Mostly solid titles remain that are, indeed, designed and balanced to facilitate clearing them on a credit. Besides the few arcades that specialized in weird, novel titles, there wasn't much variety in the choice of classic games among the different arcades because-- as it turns out-- only a relatively small slice of arcade games are well balanced and fun over a long period of time.
So, the delusion that all classic arcade games are masterclass works of design born from the credit system is not unfounded. It's a unique experience being applied broadly. Sure, any arcade game can be cleared on a credit, but anyone with taste will say only a few are worth doing.
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Post by Snarboo on Mar 2, 2014 14:33:30 GMT -5
Even if a game can be beaten on 1CC, is it worth it? You don't really gain much by not pumping quarters in other than spending less money. Most people emulate anyway, which isn't an accurate representation of the arcade experience given operators often messed with the dip switches to give you less lives, fewer extra lives, limit credit feeding, up the difficulty etc. So saying a game can conceivably be beaten on a 1CC under ideal conditions isn't saying much. I mean, you could conceivably beat Bubsy without dying, but I don't want to be the man to do it.
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Post by Super Orbus on Mar 2, 2014 14:34:40 GMT -5
The operators still get their money either way, since you're going to have to feed in a ton of quarters just to get good enough to have a hope of 1CC'ing.
Most of the folks over on the shmups forum seem to be okay with practicing hours a day for months on end in pursuit of the perfect playthrough. It's definitely not for everybody.
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Post by Snarboo on Mar 2, 2014 14:36:44 GMT -5
Exactly! But there again, most people who go for 1CCs emulate, as arcade boards are hard to come by in the wild and incredibly expensive. Even then, I doubt any of them would mess with the dip switches.
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Post by Super Orbus on Mar 2, 2014 14:38:07 GMT -5
Most of the really hardcore folks over on the shmups forum are playing on arcade boards. And yes they are horrendously expensive.
The less fanatic members are presumably emulating or playing on consoles.
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Post by Snarboo on Mar 2, 2014 14:41:48 GMT -5
Which probably explains the elitism!
"Oh, you can't afford to buy your own arcade board to practice on? PLEBIAN!"
I think 1CC should be replaced with The Chucky Cheese Clear Challenge: can you beat a game under less than ideal conditions? I doubt even the most hardcore could stand to beat their favorite game on a board with a greased up, limp joystick, dip switches set to max, obnoxious music blaring in the background, and cheap pizza filling their gut.
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Post by Super Orbus on Mar 2, 2014 14:46:11 GMT -5
We should start a thread over there and call them out.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Mar 2, 2014 14:51:26 GMT -5
Which probably explains the elitism! "Oh, you can't afford to buy your own arcade board to practice on? PLEBIAN!" I think 1CC should be replaced with The Chucky Cheese Clear Challenge: can you beat a game under less than ideal conditions? I doubt even the most hardcore could stand to beat their favorite game on a board with a greased up, limp joystick, dip switches set to max, obnoxious music blaring in the background, and cheap pizza filling their gut. I have a problem playing in ideal conditions actually. I never played at many Chuck E. Cheeses, but I used to play at bars with old people going "oh, he is a cute kid, he really likes his video games". And siblings whining about wanting a turn. To this day I can't play Pac-Man without Johnny Cash or Willie Nelson in the background.
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Post by justjustin on Mar 2, 2014 15:02:40 GMT -5
1CCing is not a completely abstract challenge and still has its merits in freeplay and emulation. It is a practical way to spend more time with a game and, honestly, less frustrating in the long run. Typically, games get harder as you go so you end up feeling increasingly incapable as you continue at a faster rate later on. Eventually the game just feels like a mess. Starting over and getting more powered-up for next time is a much more pleasant experience and makes the later levels easier instead of seem impossible. Some semblance of order appears in the chaos.
Of course, all this relies on the arcade game actually being designed to facilitate a 1CC. There isn't much of a point in starting over if you're not rewarded for playing well or the game kills you in cheap, unexpected ways. But the best designed games-- the minority-- have well-planned power-up and life distribution to reward survival. So that is one way of looking at it apart from the money aspect.
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Post by Super Orbus on Mar 2, 2014 15:09:35 GMT -5
I think it just comes down to personality type at that point. Some people enjoy obsessing over something to reach perfection. Others don't. My own attention span is far too short to ever be anything more than a very casual shmup player.
Actually over at the shmups forum, for the people who play for score, getting the 1CC is just the beginning. You need to be able to consistently 1CC a game before you can even start competing in terms of playing for score.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Mar 2, 2014 15:12:39 GMT -5
I am kind of curious what they think of Gradius III....
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Post by Snarboo on Mar 2, 2014 15:14:15 GMT -5
1CCing is a legit way of playing a game, I'm just not a fan of the elitism behind it. If most designers had intended you to be able to beat it on 1 credit, they would have disabled the coin slot after the first credit was put in. Even the best balanced games were designed with the notion that you would be putting credits into the machine at a constant rate. Saying a game could conceivably be beaten with 1 credit under ideal conditions isn't saying much, because it's not wholly indicative of the design mentality behind arcade games, nor is it an accurate representation of the arcade experience. I realize that's not the point of the 1CC, but it disappoints me that this is what the shmup community at large has devolved into. I've always been more interested in looking at and discussing the mechanics of a game rather than the challenge that goes with it. Euroshmups fascinate me the most as a result given some of the odd choices made, but nobody likes euroshmups so.
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