famicommunist
Junior Member
That's a pretty nasty tan you have there SNES-tan.
Posts: 60
|
Post by famicommunist on May 10, 2014 10:31:07 GMT -5
I can't agree, Tom. You've seen enough of my posts that you know I'd prefer to see games localized that don't play up nudity/sexuality as their primary market-point at all. But I get it. Those won't sell. But I'm never going to get to learn Japanese, so..... My apologies if this comes off as a tad rude, but just because you don't like these things in games does not mean that they should not be in games. Some people do enjoy those kinds of things in games, and they have the right to exist.
|
|
|
Post by Scylla on May 10, 2014 11:38:50 GMT -5
I dunno about Lunar 2 seeing as I've yet to play through it, but the first Lunar had male bath scenes in addition to the female ones. They were played more for humor than anything, though, especially when compared to the female scenes. I seem to recall it being a bigger pain to get the male scenes too. Despite all that, there was still bitching from the male gaming populace, so disgusted that such a thing was included. And, yeah, the first game had all those skeevy bromides for the female characters but none for the guys. IIRC they corrected that, and there were male bromides. Including Borgan. Ew. Took a look out of curiosity, and yeah, still not the same kind of deal as what Tom is talking about with Akiba's Trip. The male bromides are far outnumbered by female bromides, and they're still mostly played for laughs like the male bath scenes in the first Lunar, as opposed to the sex appeal they were going for with the female bromides. If this was Game Arts' attempt at throwing female gamers a bone (that was a terrible choice of words), they totally failed.
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Joestar on May 10, 2014 12:12:12 GMT -5
IIRC they corrected that, and there were male bromides. Including Borgan. Ew. Took a look out of curiosity, and yeah, still not the same kind of deal as what Tom is talking about with Akiba's Trip. The male bromides are far outnumbered by female bromides, and they're still mostly played for laughs like the male bath scenes in the first Lunar, as opposed to the sex appeal they were going for with the female bromides. If this was Game Arts' attempt at throwing female gamers a bone (that was a terrible choice of words), they totally failed. Nah I was just stating that they added them. I couldn't make it through the wall of text, but that was because of trying to make sense of other peoples' walls of text in the Tomodachi Life thread. I'm tired.
|
|
|
Post by justjustin on May 10, 2014 13:08:04 GMT -5
We're not ones to remove content due to social stigma, though, so... we decided to try something a little different. We asked Acquire if they'd be willing to draw equally helpless and subdued cut-in portraits for all the prominent male boss characters (most of whom are female-XSEED-employee-certified hot!)... and to our surprise, they actually agreed! ...And boy, did they ever follow through! The North American release of Akiba's Trip will be including these male strip portraits -- six of them, exactly as many as there are female strip portraits -- and will be offering them as in-game smartphone wallpapers after their respective battles, 100% paralleling how they function for the game's female boss characters. And let me tell you, Acquire did NOT half-ass these -- these men are subdued like WHOA, and are every bit as sexualized as their female counterparts. In effect, we have tipped the scales back and given this game 100% gender equality through the addition of male fanservice. There is now honest-to-goodness equal representation here! Pretty cool addition, and I think it would be a good trend to include more fanservice stuff for everyone, but I'm skeptical of this change having any effect on gender equality. It's certainly more fair in that there are more options for people of different sexual orientation, but images of half-naked subdued men are not entrenched in the same stereotypes as images of half-naked subdued women. Gender equality is a battle best left outside the arts, because it requires changing the way we treat each other more than representing different kinds of people in equal proportions. So it's good progress too see half-naked men included instead of censorship-- and it leads to more inclusiveness for players of different backgrounds-- but from my perspective it is not connected to gender equality. It won't change how people of different genders treat each other. I don't believe people are affected by art in a way that changes their fundamental values based on changing patterns in representation. Equal representation doesn't necessarily have an effect on gender equality. It's a subtle distinction, but I just wanted to point it out and explain why I believe that.
|
|
|
Post by wyrdwad on May 10, 2014 13:28:00 GMT -5
We're not ones to remove content due to social stigma, though, so... we decided to try something a little different. We asked Acquire if they'd be willing to draw equally helpless and subdued cut-in portraits for all the prominent male boss characters (most of whom are female-XSEED-employee-certified hot!)... and to our surprise, they actually agreed! ...And boy, did they ever follow through! The North American release of Akiba's Trip will be including these male strip portraits -- six of them, exactly as many as there are female strip portraits -- and will be offering them as in-game smartphone wallpapers after their respective battles, 100% paralleling how they function for the game's female boss characters. And let me tell you, Acquire did NOT half-ass these -- these men are subdued like WHOA, and are every bit as sexualized as their female counterparts. In effect, we have tipped the scales back and given this game 100% gender equality through the addition of male fanservice. There is now honest-to-goodness equal representation here! Pretty cool addition, and I think it would be a good trend to include more fanservice stuff for everyone, but I'm skeptical of this change having any effect on gender equality. It's certainly more fair in that there are more options for people of different sexual orientation, but images of half-naked subdued men are not entrenched in the same stereotypes as images of half-naked subdued women. Gender equality is a battle best left outside the arts, because it requires changing the way we treat each other more than representing different kinds of people in equal proportions. So it's good progress too see half-naked men included instead of censorship-- and it leads to more inclusiveness for players of different backgrounds-- but from my perspective it is not connected to gender equality. It won't change how people of different genders treat each other. I don't believe people are affected by art in a way that changes their fundamental values based on changing patterns in representation. Equal representation doesn't necessarily have an effect on gender equality. It's a subtle distinction, but I just wanted to point it out and explain why I believe that. Good point, and I completely agree. I probably should've worded this topic a bit better! Duly noted for future discussions. -Tom
|
|
|
Post by Ike on May 11, 2014 0:15:27 GMT -5
Reminder that on this very forum people were legitimately pissed that the near-nude costume for a female character in Bravely Default was cut for the US version under the argument that it was censorship of content while nobody gave two fucks about including the male near-nude equivalent.
|
|
|
Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 1:11:09 GMT -5
Reminder that on this very forum people were legitimately pissed that the near-nude costume for a female character in Bravely Default was cut for the US version under the argument that it was censorship of content while nobody gave two fucks about including the male near-nude equivalent. I was the one pissed about that, actually. And I'm always going to be pissed whenever content is censored or omitted in another country, regardless of how insignificant that content may be. I even went on a crusade against our own Senran Kagura Burst for omitting the ages of the characters from their in-game profiles! And I intend to continue speaking out against this in regards to Senran Kagura Shinovi Versus, where the same thing holds true. If Acquire hadn't been willing to create and include these male strip portraits in Akiba's Trip, make no mistake, we would've released the game with just the female strip portraits -- we certainly wouldn't have removed them, nor should we have, since they're a part of the original game. Being unbalanced toward gender representation is unfortunate, but it's not something that should ever be censored. That's part of why I'm so excited about these male strip portraits -- they prove there's an alternative to censorship that can help bring equal gender representation to Japanese games that don't natively have it. Basically, these male strip portraits show that there's another way. A way to have your cake and eat it too, so to speak. And I very much hope other publishers follow suit. -Tom
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2014 1:25:54 GMT -5
This sounds like a smart way to poke fun at the sexualization of characters in both anime and video games. Props to XSEED for going the extra mile on the localization for this game. As far as equality goes between the sexes, actual equality means the same opportunities for both genders without either one being viewed as superior or inferior. It doesn't mean you can't have fanservice at all, whether it be aimed at men or women.
I mean I don't like NASCAR games, but I'm not going to say they aren't allowed to exist, or shouldn't exist.
|
|
|
Post by Ike on May 11, 2014 1:30:42 GMT -5
I don't follow your argument that this is somehow promoting equality since it seems to be that the male strip portraits are included in order to justify the female ones. Is there female demand for the male nudity to the same degree that there's male demand for fanservice? The whole thing seems to be phrased in terms of doling out equal parts fanservice for both genders and calling that equality or respectful or whatever when the real problem is that fanservice generally is very male-gazey, even with regard to male fanservice - seeing a nude(ish) dude in one of these things is composed in such a way that it's not significantly different from a woman being posed in the same manner. It always feels very much like a "okay, let's get this out of the way so we can get on to what you really came for" *slow motion shot of jiggling breasts with lens flare*
Fanservice is the bottom of the barrel low point in anime-styled merchandise generally. There's nothing wrong with sex in media, but it's a lot more distasteful when it tries to be titillating for the sake of giving the viewer a chubby so they'll appreciate the rest of the product by association, kind of like sticking a bikini babe by your video game's booth to attract attention. It's crass, and it's pretty telling that every time a game your company localizes has a lot of fanservice, you seem to feel the need to pre-emptively jump on the defensive about it before anybody even brought it up. It's like you know there's something wrong with it and you need to save face, because I'm getting some serious deja vu from this thread.
|
|
|
Post by 9inchsamurai on May 11, 2014 1:35:00 GMT -5
But I do think it's kind of interesting that despite a lot of the "deviance" amongst otaku, there's also a sort of weird chivalry spurred by the obsession with "moe" culture. Every otaku dude wants to be Train Man, so every otaku dude almost overcompensates when it comes to women, treating them with a sort of protective reverence and defending their honor should anyone threaten to bring them shame. It's regression, to be sure, but it's a weirdly charming sort of regression -- and certainly preferable to one of the other commonly-seen alternatives (men viewing women solely as objects of conquest). It's still objectification of another person, which is harmful no matter what. True it's much less externally harmful compared to men who beat their wives when they don't "act properly" or something, but I'd argue the otaku kind of objectification is more internally harmful instead. I dunno, it's an interesting topic for sure. I think it only gets weird when things combine moe with sexualization at the same time; moe by itself can be pretty endearing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 11, 2014 1:39:49 GMT -5
Does moe exist without sexualization? This is some serious tree-falling-in-the-woods kind of philosophy.
|
|
|
Post by Ike on May 11, 2014 1:41:31 GMT -5
Theoretically something can just be cute without being sexual, but I think that concept died with the rise of the internet
|
|
|
Post by Ike on May 11, 2014 1:47:35 GMT -5
Hey Tom, here's a challenge for you. How about you convince the company to remove the female portraits entirely but keep the male ones? Even just doing it theoretically. Give me a good reason why you wouldn't do that that doesn't involve censorship or equality. Because from either angle you would be making a powerful statement by doing so that would frankly make a much larger impact than simply including male portraits and calling it equality. It would only be censorship in the sense that you'd be removing something, but censorship is really about speech, and in this case omitting some material would make that speech much more powerful. If you're really committed to this idea of equality, why not represent it in a way that more accurately reflects the industry as a whole instead of just the one game?
Here's what I mean. There are a million games out there with a lot of female fanservice but virtually none (that I'm aware of) that feature male fanservice exclusively. If you're really committed to this idea of promoting gender equality, perhaps you should take that statement as a callout to the industry as a whole. Say, well, this game is going to take a different stand and represent a different, underrepresented group in gaming. If this stuff has as much a right to exist as anything else, it stands to reason that you could even the playing field by saying, you know what, men have enough fanservice in this community - here's something just for the ladies, for once.
|
|
|
Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 2:03:18 GMT -5
Is there female demand for the male nudity to the same degree that there's male demand for fanservice? Judging by literally every single female gamer I know IRL... YES. YES THERE IS. Seriously. I think most of the female gamers I know are more obsessed with shirtless anime dudes than most of the male gamers I know are obsessed with boobs. Male fanservice anime like "Free" wouldn't be the huge megahits they are if women weren't really into this. That's what I was afraid would happen with this game, but as soon as I saw the portraits Acquire drew, it was clear they put just as much effort into them as they did into the female portraits. They COMMITTED to the idea, and I applaud them for that. Believe me, it's not preemptive. People raise hell about this the second these games are announced -- just not necessarily on here. But I've been around HG101 long enough to know that a lot of you are -- no offense -- really prudish about this sort of thing, so of course I'm going to go on the defensive right away. I swear to you on everything that I hold dear, though, that I'm not just spouting some corporate line or anything. I truly, sincerely believe everything I've ever said about our games on these forums. If there's a game of ours I don't personally like or approve of, I won't talk about it AT ALL on public forums -- that's usually the way you can tell when we release games I don't much care about. If I talk about one of our games, though -- and especially if I talk about it A LOT -- then I am absolutely a fan of it, and will defend it to the end. (Will continue in another response, since I have no idea how to multi-quote on here.)
|
|
|
Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 2:15:01 GMT -5
Actually, by definition, moe is non-sexual. Moe has been corrupted to BECOME sexual in modern Japanese pop culture... but the concept itself was originally all about innocence and purity. A moe character is designed to tap into the viewer/reader/player's motherly or fatherly instincts and make him/her desire to protect the purity of the character from the corruptive influences of the world. If the viewer/reader/player is meant to fall in love with the moe character, it's meant to be a pure, deep love, with little to no lustful component. A perfect example of true moe can be found in the anime or visual novel "Clannad." Which is renowned for being non-pornographic and containing not even so much as a panty shot, yet remains one of the most celebrated in its entire genre. Hey Tom, here's a challenge for you. How about you convince the company to remove the female portraits entirely but keep the male ones? Even just doing it theoretically. Give me a good reason why you wouldn't do that that doesn't involve censorship or equality. My reasons are anti-censorship and pro-equality. I'm not interested in tipping the scales in the other direction. EVER. Fighting the predominance of female fanservice by removing female fanservice and replacing it with male fanservice would be like fighting racism by creating a "blacks only" restaurant. It would make no sense to discriminate in that fashion, and would absolutely not help the problem in any way. Because it would be unfair to each individual game if they weren't all treated individually. A game should not suffer because of an industry trend -- it should live and die entirely by its own merits. Each game might as well exist in a vacuum as far as I'm concerned -- it should be judged for what it is and how closely it managed to achieve the goals set out by its creators, not for what it isn't or what it does that people don't approve of. If Japan developed a game that contained exclusively male fanservice, I'd welcome it, and would wholeheartedly recommend it to XSEED. But I'm not going to take a game that contains female fanservice and REMOVE that female fanservice from it, as it would no longer be an accurate representation of the creator's vision. It would be a different game altogether. In other words, it doesn't matter how many female fanservice games there are... if I'm playing a female fanservice game, and it's GOOD, I'm going to champion it. I'm not going to lament that it relies on tired, offensive sexualization to sell copies -- I'm going to accept that it was designed to rely on sexualization, and judge it on how well it pulls that off and how fun it is overall. I will never judge a game poorly because of a social stigma, however. If it achieves what it set out to do, it's a good game. Regardless of what it set out to do. -Tom
|
|