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Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 15:42:39 GMT -5
Actually, I totally would. And I maintain that "moe" is at least MEANT to be non-sexual. You say it evolved from lolicon, but I actually would theorize it evolved more from the Japanese literary tradition of "mono no ahare" -- a focus on the fleeting nature of beauty, positing that beauty is only beautiful because it's temporary and will one day die, but that this makes it even MORE beautiful. I agreed up until you said about lolicon because that is, was, and always has been a sexual thing. Er, yeah, lolicon totally is. I'm not denying that at all. What I'm saying is that moe is NOT lolicon. They're two very different things. Lolicon is what happens when you take moe and sexualize it. If it's designed to titillate, it's not moe anymore. It's gone "post-moe." I think the sexualization of moe became a much bigger thing once people actually assigned a name to it. Moe has been around since the advent of fiction in Japanese society, it just never really had a name for most of its life. It existed independently of lolicon, with clear demarcations, back in the '80s. But then in the late '90s and early '00s, people began to put a magnifying glass to it, and they named it "moe." And ever since then, moe has been exploited and twisted and merged with lolicon and other aspects of popular culture and art to create something that's altogether in contrast with what moe truly stands for. -Tom
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Post by Ike on May 11, 2014 17:01:40 GMT -5
What the fuck is this thread
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Post by Snarboo on May 11, 2014 17:05:08 GMT -5
I dunno, man, but I'm wondering now if this game had been made in the West, if people would be as quick to defend it as their special Japanese snowflakes.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2014 17:07:08 GMT -5
It's Tom defending something to the death again, getting revived, then dying all over again.
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Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 17:10:00 GMT -5
I dunno, man, but I'm wondering now if this game had been made in the West, if people would be as quick to defend it as their special Japanese snowflakes. I certainly would! I'm all about pushing the envelope. Pfft. I ain't even died once, man! I'm 1ccing this baby. -Tom
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Post by Ike on May 11, 2014 17:13:11 GMT -5
Do people not understand that even Japanese society as a whole seems to be ashamed of these kinds of things? I mean when you start talking about what moe "stands for" I think you're viewing the world through a startlingly narrow lens
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Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 17:15:39 GMT -5
Do people not understand that even Japanese society as a whole seems to be ashamed of these kinds of things? That's... half the point of this game! It's all about the deviant side of Akiba culture, and is equal parts poking fun at that deviant side and celebrating it. This game is basically the JRPG equivalent of "letting your freak flag fly," and that's why it's so fun and so hilarious! In terms of Western culture, it sort of falls into the same category as South Park or Family Guy, which provide biting social commentary that's both merciless toward American culture but also in many ways celebratory of it. So Akiba's Trip is almost like a roast of Akiba culture... Not at all. Moe is such a huge part of Japanese literature and modern Japanese pop culture (corrupted or no) that I think ignoring it or dismissing it outright would be a far narrower viewpoint than taking the time to understand and appreciate it for what it is. -Tom
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Post by Joseph Joestar on May 11, 2014 17:31:22 GMT -5
I like moe. Fuck the haters.
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Post by Scylla on May 11, 2014 17:56:04 GMT -5
I have a love/hate relationship with moe. Like to hell with worthless moeblob nonsense and the losers who obsess over it, but I can't deny that some stuff that is strongly identified as "moe", like Key games/anime and Azumanga Daioh, is great. But then, I'm looking at this stuff through my own perspective, and thinking about the creepy perspective from which many guys appreciate even the good stuff kind of weirds me out. And when we're dealing with stuff that has all-female main casts, it's kind of voyeuristic in a way, like a guy peeping on a girls' locker room. That's not exclusive to moe, though. A guy who's obsessed with Sailor Moon could be just as creepy as one who is obsessed with Azumanga Daioh. I'm not saying ALL guys who are really into that stuff are that way but yeah. It raises red flags.
But just so I don't seem like I'm picking on guys, female fans can get creepy too. Sports anime is popular among female anime fans, and it ain't because these girls are so athletic. In their case, they're quite literally watching to peep on the boys' locker room. Female fans have done/said some pretty messed up things to male seiyuu on occasion too.
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Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 18:09:53 GMT -5
I have a love/hate relationship with moe. Like to hell with worthless moeblob nonsense and the losers who obsess over it, but I can't deny that some stuff that is strongly identified as "moe", like Key games/anime and Azumanga Daioh, is great. But then, I'm looking at this stuff through my own perspective, and thinking about the creepy perspective from which many guys appreciate even the good stuff kind of weirds me out. Hear hear on that. I think the best example of this, as well as of the things that are legitimately wrong with modern Japanese pop culture, comes from the anime "Strawberry Marshmallow." If you've seen the anime itself, you know it's innocent as can be, and is the very definition of moe -- it's a slice-of-life show about a group of best friends in elementary school and the daily trials and tribulations they face in their lives. It's a cute, well-written show that I can't really see anyone objecting to at all on its own merits unless they just plain hate cutesiness. The characters are never sexualized or objectified, and the dialogue is all very realistic and representative of what it's like to grow up in modern Japan. It is, quite simply, a very good show. ...Then you get to its marketing. Sooooo much of the original marketing materials for this show, from its DVD cases to its promo posters to the ads for it featured on billboards and in magazines, showcase its female elementary school cast in skimpy bikinis, nude in baths, shown from low angles so you can catch a peek at their panties, or in otherwise obviously suggestive positions designed to appeal to the lolicon crowd. The difference between the show itself and the way it was marketed is honestly JARRING, and very clearly shows how moe has been corrupted by the modern Japanese media. And if you ever wanted a clear, distinct picture to illustrate the difference between moe and lolicon, that's it right there: the show is moe, the way it's advertised is lolicon. Straight up. -Tom
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Post by hashin on May 11, 2014 18:34:02 GMT -5
The difference between the show itself and the way it was marketed is honestly JARRING, and very clearly shows how moe has been corrupted by the modern Japanese media. And if you ever wanted a clear, distinct picture to illustrate the difference between moe and lolicon, that's it right there: the show is moe, the way it's advertised is lolicon. Straight up. -Tom Yes, and that's why Akiba's Strip still offends me Why there's no clothes damaged male sharing a space on the cover too? I'm very offended and gonna make a big deal of this on the internet.
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Post by caoslayer on May 11, 2014 19:00:44 GMT -5
To be fair, there is male underwear in the cover when there is not female. I have saw way worse covers showing both more and less clothers. Seriously, mature games are the most inmature thing ever, the only mature game I can get serious is Catherine and still have its moments.
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famicommunist
Junior Member
That's a pretty nasty tan you have there SNES-tan.
Posts: 60
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Post by famicommunist on May 11, 2014 19:10:44 GMT -5
I like moe. Fuck the haters. I love moe, and I dislike anyone who wants to keep me from enjoying it.
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Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 20:17:53 GMT -5
I like moe. Fuck the haters. I love moe, and I dislike anyone who wants to keep me from enjoying it. Now THAT is a great example of a show that's 100% moe and 100% awesome. Nichijou is so good. -Tom
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Post by Joseph Joestar on May 12, 2014 9:35:35 GMT -5
I have a love/hate relationship with moe. Like to hell with worthless moeblob nonsense and the losers who obsess over it, but I can't deny that some stuff that is strongly identified as "moe", like Key games/anime and Azumanga Daioh, is great. But then, I'm looking at this stuff through my own perspective, and thinking about the creepy perspective from which many guys appreciate even the good stuff kind of weirds me out. And when we're dealing with stuff that has all-female main casts, it's kind of voyeuristic in a way, like a guy peeping on a girls' locker room. That's not exclusive to moe, though. A guy who's obsessed with Sailor Moon could be just as creepy as one who is obsessed with Azumanga Daioh. I'm not saying ALL guys who are really into that stuff are that way but yeah. It raises red flags. But just so I don't seem like I'm picking on guys, female fans can get creepy too. Sports anime is popular among female anime fans, and it ain't because these girls are so athletic. In their case, they're quite literally watching to peep on the boys' locker room. Female fans have done/said some pretty messed up things to male seiyuu on occasion too. I enjoy a lot of "moe" things or girly shit for non-sexual reasons but then again I know that it's something you don't talk about in public. I really like Precure because it's funny seeing magical girls totally wreck shit; same goes for Card Captor Sakura (I also always thought it was hilarious how Tomoyo was carrying around a video camera all the time). But still, there is something undeniably creepy about a grown man watching a show about what amounts to cartoon jailbait. "Big friends" as the Japanese call it. Anyway, I think as long as you're finding entertainment value in something for the right reasons and not for fueling beat-off sessions it should be ok; it's just not something you should discuss openly with classmates or your reverend or whatever like a lot of Bronies seem to do. As for the "sports anime" fans, I agree; stuff like Kuroko's Basket seems like a precision engineered attempt to get yaoi fangirls wet. But hey, at least they're giving a portion of the female audience fanservice of their own to serve as a counterpart to the stuff for the male creeps.
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