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Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 2:37:42 GMT -5
Apologies for the triple-post, but I just thought of a really good analogy.
Let's liken buying a video game to ordering a pizza. Specifically, a pepperoni pizza.
Removing content from a game is like getting the pizza home and discovering a slice is missing. Nobody wins on that one.
Changing content in a game is like getting the pizza home and discovering that one of the slices is mushroom instead of pepperoni. Some people might be happy with this... but the fact remains that it's not what you ordered. If it were my pizza, I'd complain.
Adding content to a game is like picking up your pizza and having another box on top of it containing a slice of mushroom, purely as a bonus. Maybe you don't like mushroom pizza, but you don't have to eat it -- it's extra. You got what you paid for and THEN some.
And doing what you're suggesting -- replacing the entirety of the in-game fanservice with its exact opposite -- would be like getting the pizza home and finding that it's all mushroom INSTEAD of pepperoni.
Basically, it's a wrong order scenario.
You may argue that pepperoni pizza isn't good for you... but if it's what you ordered, it should be what you get.
Using this analogy, the Japanese version of Akiba's Trip would be like a pizza cut into 11 slices: 6 pepperoni and 5 mushroom. Our version is basically that same pizza, but with one additional slice of mushroom just to ensure that the quantities are equal.
-Tom
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Post by Feynman on May 11, 2014 4:16:41 GMT -5
As for the omnipresent Internet Moral Crusade complaining about oh noes sexism, my response is thus: telling companies to stop localizing or making games with sexist content is a waste of time and energy. In the world of books, sci-fi and nonfiction and paperback romances all coexist. Art films and dumb blockbusters and porn all coexist. The same principle holds true for videogames.
Basically, whining about how [Thing You Don't Like] exists is fruitless. Spend time trying to convince the world that there is also a viable market for [Thing You Do Like] instead.
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Post by caoslayer on May 11, 2014 4:27:30 GMT -5
The only thing I don't like about this kind of thread is that nobody actually talks about the game, I have no idea if is a good game that is worth playing or if the gameplay is a excuse for tit, asses and otaku jokes.
I hate it specially when the game is totally awesome like Dragon´s Crown but if you read about it in internet seems that the game is all about bouncy mammaries.
I want more hardcore gaming, no hardcore sex... wait, that did I just said?
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Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 5:04:29 GMT -5
The only thing I don't like about this kind of thread is that nobody actually talks about the game, I have no idea if is a good game that is worth playing or if the gameplay is a excuse for tit, asses and otaku jokes. Ah, in that case, I can tell you all about it! Copied and pasted from what I typed in the NeoGAF thread on this game: Basically, it's a brawler/beat-em-up. You're a nerd in Akihabara who applied for a really shady-sounding part-time job, and... sure enough, it was a fake job listing: instead of being interviewed, you were strapped to a table and transformed into a manmade energy vampire called a "Synthister." Fortunately, you were saved from your fate by a mysterious Synthister-hunter girl who showed up and partially reversed the effects of your transformation. You're still weak to sunlight, but you're no longer prone to fits of violent rage -- and you even get to keep your superhuman strength! So you and your nerdy friends (as well as the mysterious girl) are now on a mission to uncover the source of the Synthister plague in Akihabara (which you accomplish with the help of an experimental Synthister-identifying app for your in-game smartphone). Once you've found Synthisters, the only way to defeat them is to strip off all of their clothes, exposing their skin to sunlight and causing them to dissolve. Combat involves using makeshift everyday objects (books of manga, motherboards, baseball bats, glowsticks, sticks of churrascaria meat, etc.) as weapons and beating the crap out of your opponents with high, mid and low attacks. These attacks deplete the enemy's three HP bars, which represent their headgear, shirt and pants, respectively. Once one of their HP bars is at or near 0, you can press and hold the corresponding attack button to attempt to strip that article of clothing -- and if there are multiple weakened articles of clothing nearby, you can perform strip combos to strip them all in a row (and possibly strip their underwear as well!). There are also "unison strips" where you and your NPC partner can team up to absolutely wreck an enemy, as well as different "strip styles" you can take on (tickle strip, telekinetic strip, kame-hame-strip, etc.) to keep things interesting. Stripped clothing is torn at first, but by reading various guidebooks you can purchase from the many real-life Akihabara shops included in the game, you can learn to remove various types of clothing articles WITHOUT tearing them, thus essentially stealing them to add to your own personal wardrobe. As you might expect, the story is all very tongue-in-cheek, but also surprisingly well-written with very clever dialogue and lots of social satire about otaku culture in Japan (as well as internet culture in general). And the combat is pretty chaotic and fun, sometimes pitting you against dozens of enemies at once. It's good stuff, and a LOT more fun than I ever thought it could be going into it. It's weirdly addictive and absolutely hilarious. And I can't stress enough how great a job Acquire did of recreating the real-life Akihabara. When I visited their office in Akihabara this past March, I actually got deja vu in a few spots -- not from having been to Akihabara 11 years ago, but from having just been there in the game! In fact, I have a short anecdote: In-game, there's an art gallery near Akihabara Station, and if you get ANYWHERE near it, a woman in a suit will jump in front of you and FORCE you to go into her gallery and sit through a presentation on the amazingly valuable pieces of art she has available for sale. She'll then browbeat you into buying one, and it will literally be a useless piece of junk item that does nothing but take up space in your inventory. This woman and her accomplices are called "eurian" in the Japanese, which is a portmanteau of the words "euri" (art-seller) and "alien," and the game would have you believe that these "Artliens" (as we've translated the term) are a plague on the entire town, even going so far as to send you on side missions to seek and destroy them. ...Well, when I was in Akihabara in real life, I happened to pass right by that art gallery (which exists exactly where it's depicted in-game!)... and sure enough, a woman in a business suit carrying a framed picture in both hands literally LEAPED IN FRONT OF ME, blocking me as I was trying to walk past, and tried everything she possibly could to get me to go into her gallery and buy something. I was kind of flabbergasted, because this meant ARTLIENS ARE REAL. And it made me all the more impressed with Akiba's Trip for capturing pretty much EVERY PART of the Akihabara experience. Like, seriously... it kind of blew my mind. -Tom
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Post by caoslayer on May 11, 2014 6:33:48 GMT -5
Sounds like Yakuza but much more limited.
EDIT: Why are we getting this and no Yakuza 5? (Yeah, I know they are different publishers)
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Pleont
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いまじゃパワーをメテオに~!
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Post by Pleont on May 11, 2014 8:04:43 GMT -5
Actually, by definition, moe is non-sexual. Moe has been corrupted to BECOME sexual in modern Japanese pop culture... but the concept itself was originally all about innocence and purity. A moe character is designed to tap into the viewer/reader/player's motherly or fatherly instincts and make him/her desire to protect the purity of the character from the corruptive influences of the world. If the viewer/reader/player is meant to fall in love with the moe character, it's meant to be a pure, deep love, with little to no lustful component. A perfect example of true moe can be found in the anime or visual novel "Clannad." Which is renowned for being non-pornographic and containing not even so much as a panty shot, yet remains one of the most celebrated in its entire genre. Defined by whom? If you're using the same definition used by the likes of Ken Akamatsu, then I'll have you know that the man was being intellectually dishonest. Moe is sexual because it's the next evolutionary step of the character designs from the lolicon boom during the 80s. A moe character is drawn with supernormal childish traits that elicit a stronger paternal response than what the viewer would normally see in nature. These childish traits (large heads, big eyes, stubby limbs, etc.) are also complimented by sexually attractive traits, which are the same as the traits used for the lolita heroines from the 80s, and the readership of the magazines featuring these kinds of characters would also insist that their interest was strictly paternal, or a pure, deep platonic love, rather than anything lustful, which is about the same as saying that about Charles Lutwidge Dodgson (Lewis Carroll) and his interest in particular photographic subjects. Actually, the disparaging term Otaku was coined by a man called Nakamori Akio, who would write in a magazine called Manga Burikko that catered to lolicons (he came up with the term after going to Comiket to sum up his impression of the male and female manga freaks he saw), and he would disparagingly refer to the magazine's readership as Otakus. Eventually the readers forced the editors to ban Nakamori from using the term Otaku before they eventually killed his column. It's kind of funny how so many westerners willingly refer to themselves as Otaku when the popularity of the term in Japan exploded when Nakamori used it years after his column was discontinued to refer to a guy called Miyazaki Tsutomu (a paedophile who murdered young girls). It's like if you were to go to Jamaica, and you saw a guy wearing a shirt saying "I'm a Cannibalistic Paedophile" on it. If you're being honest about Akiba's Trip being a satire, then I would expect it to read about the same as one of Nakamori's delightfully disparaging columns, since he wasn't really offended by the bad-taste of the contents of otaku subculture, but was more concerned about the people themselves and their misanthropic attitudes and unhealthy escapism. If Akiba's Trip was a really good satire, then I would expect the game to also mock your definition of moe as being nonsexual. In any case, your Clannad characters also fall into moe being sexual. You used the word pornographic, but these people are mainly interested in eroticism. In the case of Clannad, some of the characters wear short skirts to expose their sexually mature thighs to appeal to the Zettai Ryouiki fetish. You don't need something as blatant as nudity or panty shots to be sexual; something as simple as a character exposing the nape of their neck while wearing a kimono is enough to be erotic.
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Post by Ike on May 11, 2014 11:53:57 GMT -5
Probably not, because nobody is trying to defend harlequin romance as high art the way nerds clamor to try to justify their jerkoff material. If you want a western equivalent to the moe thing, look at the lengths people go to to try and convince the world that bronies are TOTALLY NOT ABOUT THE SEX, GUSY
edit: it is really, really, really fucking telling that they chose that frame as the default display for this video
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2014 12:13:20 GMT -5
Probably not, because nobody is trying to defend harlequin romance as high art the way nerds clamor to try to justify their jerkoff material. If you want a western equivalent to the moe thing, look at the lengths people go to to try and convince the world that bronies are TOTALLY NOT ABOUT THE SEX, GUSY edit: it is really, really, really fucking telling that they chose that frame as the default display for this video Jesus effing Christ. They mention fapping in their explicit attempt to justify their own existence. Bravo, bronies. Bravo.
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Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 13:06:48 GMT -5
Probably not, because nobody is trying to defend harlequin romance as high art Actually, I totally would. And I maintain that "moe" is at least MEANT to be non-sexual. You say it evolved from lolicon, but I actually would theorize it evolved more from the Japanese literary tradition of "mono no ahare" -- a focus on the fleeting nature of beauty, positing that beauty is only beautiful because it's temporary and will one day die, but that this makes it even MORE beautiful. "Moe" posits that one cannot remain innocent forever -- that the world WILL one day corrupt every one of us -- but that a person's innocence and purity, especially that of a child (and there is male moe as well, mind!), is beautiful and worth protecting as long as possible. This is purely my own theory, since the definition of moe is not set in stone, but differs depending on whom you ask. But I would strongly argue that moe is a natural evolution of mono no ahare, and a very effective literary technique with quite a lot of artistic merit. But like the characters who display moe tendencies, moe itself is highly susceptible to corruption, and "sex sells," as it were... so of course, what people refer to as "moe" today doesn't really fit the definition, as far as I'm concerned. As for your points about Clannad and the characters' short skirts, I don't actually think the characters' skirts are short for purposes of sexual titillation. Rather, I think they're short for realism! If you go to any (and I mean ANY) Japanese high school, the official uniform for the girls there will include a skirt AT LEAST that short. It can be argued that this is a social trend predicated on the sexualization of youth (and I completely believe that, as Japan is very much still a sexist society in many ways), but I wouldn't expect Clannad to give its characters longer skirts and still expect them to be relatable to Japanese youth. And in fact, once the characters of the show graduate from high school (which they do a little over halfway through the story), they begin wearing far more conservative clothing as they enter the Japanese workforce and move on with their lives. If the show's intent were to sexualize these characters, you'd expect them to dress a lot more risque than this when given absolute freedom of what to wear: images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/22900000/Clannad-After-Story-clannad-after-story-22924366-959-719.jpgAnd yes, it's still a skirt, but skirts are symbols of absolute femininity -- and while Clannad never tries to be "sexy," it certainly does have very clear societal gender roles that its characters follow (as is usually the case with moe, since that contributes toward the absolute innocence of a character). (And yes, she's barefoot, but she's on tatami -- the choices are barefoot, socks or stockings, any of which can be fetishized equally, so shut up!) ((There are better images out there, but that's the best one I could find right now from a quick Google Image Search.)) ...As for the game itself, those of you determined to call it out for being fetishistic rather than satirical will almost certainly find it to be a fetishistic work rather than a satirical one, and I can say pretty definitively that the game is not for you. If you're not open to the possibility of using fetishism and social stigma to satirize a topic without outright condemning it, then I'd stay far away from this game, as your prejudice toward the title will end up becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy. For those who are a bit more open to what Akiba's Trip tries to do, however, I urge you to give it a shot, as it's a great game that I feel is brilliantly-written, highly satirical and endlessly entertaining. And has very equal gender representation. -Tom
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Post by cambertian on May 11, 2014 13:18:43 GMT -5
Art is pretty much anything man-made in my book. Engineering is an art. Culinary. Electronics. Heck, even mathematics can be artistic! (You don't want ugly equations, do you?) Are you implying that just because something turns you on, or is meant to turn you on, that it's not art? What happens if I'm turned on by, say, cars? Are cars like Ferraris and Cadillacs suddenly not art or suddenly obscene because someone, somewhere happens to be attracted by it? Why not porn as art?
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Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 13:20:56 GMT -5
Art is pretty much anything man-made in my book. Engineering is an art. Culinary. Electronics. Heck, even mathematics can be artistic! (You don't want ugly equations, do you?) Are you implying that just because something turns you on, or is meant to turn you on, that it's not art? What happens if I'm turned on by, say, cars? Are cars like Ferraris and Cadillacs suddenly not art or suddenly obscene because someone, somewhere happens to be attracted by it? Why not porn as art? I hope you're serious and not just trying to be sarcastic, because I completely and utterly agree with everything you just said. -Tom
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Post by Scylla on May 11, 2014 13:44:27 GMT -5
Has XSEED released any sample of the male and female portraits? I'm kind of curious to see what they look like and how they compare (mainly to see if they really are sexualized to the same degree). In any case, your Clannad characters also fall into moe being sexual. You used the word pornographic, but these people are mainly interested in eroticism. In the case of Clannad, some of the characters wear short skirts to expose their sexually mature thighs to appeal to the Zettai Ryouiki fetish. You don't need something as blatant as nudity or panty shots to be sexual; something as simple as a character exposing the nape of their neck while wearing a kimono is enough to be erotic. And that is precisely the root of the problem. A woman can't have a square inch of bare skin exposed without somebody considering it "erotic". What do you propose as a solution, that all women on Earth wear full-body burqa? Not like it makes a difference, women will still be viewed as sexual objects either way, hence the perceived need for the burqa in the first place. It's not the short skirts that are a problem, it's the creepos who think "look at her exposed sexually mature thighs". I haven't played the game or watched the series, but I did watch the Clannad movie a few months ago. It seemed to have far bigger concerns than the attractiveness of any of the characters (namely, telling a gut-wrenching story) and it didn't strike me as particularly sexualized. I'm far less likely to side-eye Clannad than I am you for taking from it the message "sexually mature thighs". Sometimes a pipe is just a pipe, man.
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Post by wyrdwad on May 11, 2014 14:02:11 GMT -5
Has XSEED released any sample of the male and female portraits? I'm kind of curious to see what they look like and how they compare (mainly to see if they really are sexualized to the same degree). We haven't released any of the male portraits yet, but since the female portraits exist in the Japanese version of the game, and the Japanese version has been out for months now, those can be found online. We've been debating releasing one or two of the male portraits, but... well, as skeezy as this sounds, the portraits are treated as "rewards" for completing certain battles, and there are only a small handful of them in the game (6 female, 6 male), so we're hesitant to release them for fear of "spoiling the surprise," so to speak. Since the female portraits are already plastered all over the internet, though, I suppose the surprise has already been spoiled for half of what's available, so... maybe we will release one or two portraits in the coming weeks/months? I should also note, as a sort of "full disclosure," that although the numbers are equal, only 4 of the 6 male characters in the game are what would traditionally be thought of as "hot guys" in anime. The fifth is a pudgy salaryman, and the sixth is technically quite good-looking for his age, but he's in his 60s. Acquire used the pudgy salaryman portrait for humor, as there really wasn't much else you could do with it, and used the 60-year-old badass portrait for... well, badassery. I wish all the men in the game were as attractive as the women in the game, but at least the majority still are. Nonetheless, I feel this is something I should point out, as I'm sure it'll come up later if I don't. -Tom
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Post by Scylla on May 11, 2014 15:02:56 GMT -5
Yeah, that makes sense. Like with visual novel CGs, most people like to see a couple samples before buying a game, but they don't want all of them to be spoiled before playing.
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Post by Joseph Joestar on May 11, 2014 15:37:18 GMT -5
Probably not, because nobody is trying to defend harlequin romance as high art Actually, I totally would. And I maintain that "moe" is at least MEANT to be non-sexual. You say it evolved from lolicon, but I actually would theorize it evolved more from the Japanese literary tradition of "mono no ahare" -- a focus on the fleeting nature of beauty, positing that beauty is only beautiful because it's temporary and will one day die, but that this makes it even MORE beautiful. I agreed up until you said about lolicon because that is, was, and always has been a sexual thing.
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