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Post by silentstorm on May 10, 2017 3:05:53 GMT -5
Look, i like roguelites unlike some people here, i have played more Spelunky, 20XX, Binding Of Isaac, Crypt Of The Necrodancer(in my defense...you could do such silly things as every level having a different Ultraman opening for the soundtrack...i may or may not have actually done this, all i can say is that Ultraman 80 has awesome openings and Ultraman Mebius has a fun one too), Downwell, A Magical High School Girl(it lets me do a Kamehameha for God's Sake, and the attack is a giant blue beam of light actually called Kamehameha!) and i am now having fun with Streets Of Rogue, an early acess roguelite that i can tell will be awesome when it's done.
And yet, Strafe never looked good to me, every trailer just made the game look boring, and then i looked at some gameplay videos posted even before the game released and it became even more obvious, for a game that is trying to emulate 90's FPS, it is too damn slow, the levels look boring, the enemies seem too stupid, the weapons didn't seem all that great except for the cool initial weapon and other problems, granted, i have only seen videos, but that was my impression i got from the videos that seems to have been correct if reviews are anything to go by.
The worst part?
Strafe just seems like a worse version of Ziggurat, another roguelite based on 90's FPS games released a few years ago, only it had more vibrant visuals, more insane enemies(including giant running carrots with teeth), arenas where you have to face waves of enemies and you have to run and dodge as there isn't a corridor or place you can hide in, bosses, and some cool weapons that were fun to use.
Though that game would have also been better with actual level design, since 90's FPS games weren't made with having roguelite elements in mind, but i still have to say Ziggurat seems to have done the whole 90's FPS as a roguelite thing much better while receiving much less attention.
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Post by GamerL on May 10, 2017 3:27:32 GMT -5
"Roguelike" screams lazy to me to be honest, like "we can't be arsed to design actual levels, so let's let algorithms do it for us"
I also like how the indie gaming scene seems just as bereft of "innovation" as people accuse AAA gaming of being judging from the many games that use roguelike elements (not to mention over 9000 pixel platformers)
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Post by JoeQ on May 10, 2017 3:46:28 GMT -5
Slightly OT, since I don't know about Strafe, but creating a good algorithm requires a ton of work, faaaar from lazy. It's often one of the most time consuming parts of a roguelike's development. Old school roguelikes like Nethack have been refining theirs for decades.
There are definitely trends in indie games too and me-too devs jumping on them. Spelunky and Binding of Isaac are pretty much the culprits for the surge of cross-genre roguelites, though it has led to plenty of good ones too. Coin Cryp is a personal favorite that didn't get nearly enough recognition.
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Post by 🧀Son of Suzy Creamcheese🧀 on May 10, 2017 3:48:20 GMT -5
There's a lot of indie platformers or roguelikes, but there's also A LOT of indie games out there, so overall there's still a great variety. And it's not like AAA games don't rely mostly on the same genres and tropes. I think that if you were to look at the most original indie games and the most original AAA games of the last few years, you would see much more variety in the indie games.
I mean, I don't hate AAA games or anything, but it seems awfully stagnant these days.
And I think it would take much more time and effort to create an algorithm that creates good stages for a given game than creating actual levels. With algorithms you have to keep so many things in mind. And in a good roguelike, the random generated aspect of it only hightens the replayability. Think of something like Spelunky, or Minecraft, or Downwell or Don't Starve. In games like that, the game wouldn't be as fun with designed stages. And honestly, in most games that use it, there wouldn't be much of a point in designing the stages. Would a rogue-inspired dungeon crawler really be better when the rooms are placed by a human? No, but it would completely destroy the replayability of the game.
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Post by Gendo Ikari on May 10, 2017 4:40:37 GMT -5
Have you noticed that all the games that employ randomisation you listed in the last posts, are most of the ones that get mentioned around, for a good reason? (I like Downwell myself, it's not that I dismiss a game just because it had randomly generated levels)
However, I think another serious problem with Strafe is the promotion and hype it received - aggressively stupid stuff that now looks just like a smokescreen for a weak game. One of the videos showed rocket jumping - turns out that because of constantly scarce health, fall damage, randomized level architecture that makes impossibile to know good places where to use it, and rocket launchers being available only as temporary pick-ups with few ammunition, it just isn't convenient to use, at all.
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Post by elektrolurch on May 10, 2017 4:43:22 GMT -5
Uhm.......there exist a lot of rougelite games and pixel platformers in today's indie scene, sure. BUT... there are gigantic differences between them. Just compare NOT A HERO with BROFORCE. While on the surface, they ma seem very similar (2D pixely sidescrollers where you shoot shit with different characters), the overall gameplay is as far apart as can be- the former is very methodic and heavily based on trial and error and tactics, while the latter os way more fast-paced, way more luck-based, and feels just...very,very different. I hate it when people say "those 2D pixel inde plattformers/sidecrollers are all the same"while actually, there is sooo much variety in the genre- more than has ever been before, I feel..
As with rougelikes or rougelites- well, it depends how the concept is executed. Think of FTL- which was just awesome. Ziggurath was another game that kind of pulled it off rather well. Then there are those 2D pixel plattformers with rougelite elements as well- I really love risk of rain.. so there are just a lot of really good indie games out there, something for everyone. I think it's just so much sometimes, with a lot of really crappy games as well, that the decent and really good ones get overlooked. But still, I personally feel indie games are doing way more interesting stuff than the triple A industry..
All that being said- I was sceptical towards Strafe from the get go, it didn't look right..... sad that my suspicion seemed to be justified, but wel'll see. I'd love a good,pixely,fast,low poly, exploration heavy FPS in the 90ies style- but yeah, I also feel that well designed levels are part of the deal of those games, or at least somewhat -designed- levels.
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Post by akumajobelmont on May 10, 2017 7:13:20 GMT -5
To be honest, the randomly generated levels in Strafe are the least of it's problems. The levels actually do a really great job of *not* feeling random. I put another hour or two into the game today, because I couldn't resist, and I wanted to form an educated opinion. Dropped the res to 720p, got a fluid 60fps - not ideal, but it was worth it.
My biggest gripe with it is that the controls are twitchy as all hell, and as fast as (but without the precision of) something like Quake III Arena or Unreal Tournament. Movement is jerky, and the levels feel a little cramped for the speeds at which you maneuver around them. That, and the weapons just don't have any punch at all. They all feel like pea-shooters.
I'm still hopeful that the game gets some TLC post launch. There's a really great game in there somewhere. The atmosphere and aesthetics are perfect, but a little more polish and a better sense of progression would go a long way right now.
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Post by silentstorm on May 10, 2017 8:19:17 GMT -5
So reception hasn't exactly been as great as the devs hoped, but is the game that bad?
It didn't really look like much in the videos, but you never know, i did like this game even if i felt like levels that aren't random would have been nice:
Though part of it is because it's a FPS with a fantasy theme where you play as a sorcerer which is something i would like to see more of, but Ziggurat is still a roguelike FPS like Strafe, so if i liked Ziggurat there is a chance i could like Strafe, even if the videos didn't make me think Strafe could be all that great.
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Post by elektrolurch on May 10, 2017 8:32:24 GMT -5
Though part of it is because it's a FPS with a fantasy theme where you play as a sorcerer which is something i would like to see more of How many are there, actually? When I think about it, I mainly think of Hexen, Hexen 2 and Heretic...is there more?
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Post by Bumpyroad on May 10, 2017 8:50:49 GMT -5
Though part of it is because it's a FPS with a fantasy theme where you play as a sorcerer which is something i would like to see more of How many are there, actually? When I think about it, I mainly think of Hexen, Hexen 2 and Heretic...is there more? Should be , i know one - Lichdom: Battlemage. I'd like to try it actually-sounds tempting;
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Post by silentstorm on May 10, 2017 12:10:38 GMT -5
Though part of it is because it's a FPS with a fantasy theme where you play as a sorcerer which is something i would like to see more of How many are there, actually? When I think about it, I mainly think of Hexen, Hexen 2 and Heretic...is there more? Well, apart from Hexen and Heretic there is the below mentioned Lichdom:Battlemage which i haven't played, Ziggurat which i liked, Dark Messiah Of Might And Magic which is also good and there is an upcoming game from the devs behind Chivalry called Mirage: Arcane Warfare which is pretty much Chivalry with mages: It's in beta right now and i think it's multiplayer only which sucks, still the game is a fantasy FPS, even if it looks boring to me.
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Post by Feynman on May 10, 2017 12:24:55 GMT -5
How many are there, actually? When I think about it, I mainly think of Hexen, Hexen 2 and Heretic...is there more? Should be , i know one - Lichdom: Battlemage. I'd like to try it actually-sounds tempting; Lichdom: Battlemage is actually a solid game, but only the original PC version is worth playing. There are PS4/XB1 console ports, but the performance in them is so bad it is practically unplayable:
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Post by lurker on May 10, 2017 13:30:35 GMT -5
There's also Paladins, which is like Overwatch, but with a WoW-design vibe.
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Post by zerker on May 10, 2017 16:11:58 GMT -5
Though part of it is because it's a FPS with a fantasy theme where you play as a sorcerer which is something i would like to see more of, but Ziggurat is still a roguelike FPS like Strafe, so if i liked Ziggurat there is a chance i could like Strafe, even if the videos didn't make me think Strafe could be all that great. I actually tried Zigguraut for the first time a week or two ago and it made a very bad first impression. I wasn't particularly fond of the open arena combat encounters, and the bosses were all kinds of annoying. The second boss in particular took entirely too long. I'm actually looking forward to trying Strafe more because the area design looks like the geometry plays a bigger part in the combat enounters. Though who knows, maybe I'll fall off it too and just go back to more Doom/Quake levels.
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Post by elektrolurch on May 11, 2017 7:27:05 GMT -5
Nice to hear about those other fantasy FPSes.
I personally do like Ziggurath quite a bit, though this has also to do with how casual it feels, always good for a quick run or two.
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