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Post by personman on Oct 16, 2016 18:52:46 GMT -5
I could never get into shump communities since it seems they were all militant about score chasing. I more wanted to talk about aesthetics like the ship designs, or music and how I felt those things complimented the stage design or made shooting things more fun. The one time I tried I was chased out of the place.
It kinda feels like why I just can't follow discussions on a lot of games these days whether its a MMO, Dark Souls, or what have you. Just seems like everyone feels they have something to prove and I find it tedious. Theres nothing wrong with competition and perfecting performance but ffs people take it too damn far.
Plus I really don't care much for bullet hells and it seems like that's been the star of the show ever since 2006 or so.
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Post by Angel No. 55 on Oct 16, 2016 18:56:33 GMT -5
I suppose you could use this very forum to discuss these things you want?
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Post by silentstorm on Oct 16, 2016 19:20:39 GMT -5
I could never get into shump communities since it seems they were all militant about score chasing. I more wanted to talk about aesthetics like the ship designs, or music and how I felt those things complimented the stage design or made shooting things more fun. The one time I tried I was chased out of the place. It kinda feels like why I just can't follow discussions on a lot of games these days whether its a MMO, Dark Souls, or what have you. Just seems like everyone feels they have something to prove and I find it tedious. Theres nothing wrong with competition and perfecting performance but ffs people take it too damn far. Plus I really don't care much for bullet hells and it seems like that's been the star of the show ever since 2006 or so. You see this everywhere, but in shmups community it is pretty rare to see someone not interested in scores, 1CC'S or someone who does not talk about how most games are easy and most gamers suck for not being good at shmups, this is probably the highest concentration of people who do not think that way i have found at the internet talking about not caring about that i have found without someone complaining and ruining everything. Shame because i find shmups fun to play even without trying to get an high score or 1CC, it's fun to just blow everything up and survive as far as i can, and it's fun getting farther and farther away as you play more, even if i use lives and continues, but i can't find myself obsessively memorizing all the patterns and enemy locations in a game just to get an 1CC or better score, i would go mad just memorizing everything and seeing the same thing again and again for a long while as i try to win without dying once. But really, some people take shmups way too seriously, i dunno where, but i remember in one forum seeing someone giving tips on how to get better at shmups and one tip literally was "do not use continues, if you die, just restart again because otherwise you will not get good" which is borderline insane, who the hell actually does that? I try really hard not to lose lives and such, but if i die i will use continues, unless i end up dying a lot and have to use a ridiculous amount of continues, when that happens it feels like i am literally cheating and stop playing or restart, but goddamn it, i will use 1, 2,3 and 5 continues if needed to win, no way in hell i will restart every time i die.
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Post by Angel No. 55 on Oct 16, 2016 19:30:24 GMT -5
In response to the comments about current shmups pandering to the small ultra-hardcore groups who master these game thoroughly, there have been games like this for a while now.
Battle Garegga (1996) is just about unwinnable with one credit unless you learn to manipulate the game's hidden "rank" (read: dynamic difficulty) system, otherwise the late game will throw literally undodgeable patterns at you. The end result is probably the only shmup where powering up is rare, and deliberate suicides are commmonplace.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Oct 16, 2016 23:14:11 GMT -5
silentstorm: Ironically, you'll find we're all pretty non-hardcore around here. Well except for one game or such. Like I take MMO's pretty seriously. But, that said, if you're gonna try to get to a place where you can score really well on a SHMUP, continuing is usually a waste of time. If you're playing it to see the end, then obviously. But, the big problem I'm having with this whole discussion, is that not everything has to be accessible. Like a lot of these games are made for people who want to 1cc and get better and better scores. I mean it sucks that they don't make SHMUPs like Tyrian anymore. And I'm gonna add that the better bullet hell games don't have that much memorization to beat. I mean just kind of recognizing the pattern as it happens is easy enough. I've never played one that will just fuck you in the middle without a world of telegraphing.
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Post by Maciej Miszczyk on Oct 17, 2016 1:49:47 GMT -5
I think that after shmups became a niche, the devs started to cater more towards the hardcore crowd as those were the kinds of people who still played shmups after they declined in popularity. even the retrogaming craze didn't bring them back as much as it did for platformers or oldschool RPGs because shmups in general are as close to pure gameplay as it gets. also, unlike modern intentionally difficult games they tend to be pretty unforgiving (either because of scoring system which makes continuing a bad thing or because of Gradius/R-Type style checkpoints systems combined with depowering your ship after death) - you don't need to play a short isolated level well, you need to play well from start to finish.
of course you can still play them casually. obviously, you can spam credits through a whole arcade game and you'll only miss out on things if the game has additional loops or hidden bosses. you can play console/PC games with adjustable difficulty: some of the most popular titles in the genre are like this (console ports of Cave games, Touhou project). you can try more approachable of the classic titles: R-Type might have been hard but the first Gradius isn't really that difficult (although keep in mind that it's a memorization-heavy game). you can also commit the ultimate sin and play euroshmups (which, funnily enough, aren't always made in Europe). they get a lot of bad rap among shmuppers but some of them are actually a lot of fun - I especially like Tyrian.
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Post by 320x240 on Oct 17, 2016 3:42:25 GMT -5
But really, some people take shmups way too seriously, i dunno where, but i remember in one forum seeing someone giving tips on how to get better at shmups and one tip literally was "do not use continues, if you die, just restart again because otherwise you will not get good" which is borderline insane, who the hell actually does that? I think you will find that this is sound advice - if your goal is to become better at any given game. Also, sometimes not credit-feeding for a while can make you appreciate (and enjoy) a game more than you otherwise would, even if you are not playing for score. There is no reason you cannot combine periods of credit-feeding with periods of no credit-feeding. One thing that is problematic for me with modern shmups (as a casual player) is that the first few levels are too easy, except if you play for score (which already makes you a hardcore player in current terms). I prefer not playing for score but also want the difficulty to be high right from the start. Like any casual player I only memorize if I am forced to.
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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 17, 2016 16:37:49 GMT -5
I think others have briefly touched upon this already, but I've found that my favorite types of shmups (if they even count) are what I like to call "dude shmups" -- where instead of controlling a ship (or witch, or muscular man, etc.) flying through levels, you control a dude running along the ground. These still play just like normal vertically-scrolling shmups, except obstacles aren't typically instant death on contact -- they're mostly actual walls, which you can bump into and hug all you want, with other things like pits and spikes representing the more damaging or altogether deadly forms of obstacles. Most people tend to think of King's Knight when they think of the "dude shmup," which is unfortunate given that game's reputation. I've never played King's Knight myself (and from the sounds of it, I probably wouldn't like it very much if I did), but I absolutely adore Undeadline and Hinotori MSX, and also quite like Knightmare and Aleste Gaiden, all of which fall into this category. None of these four games are easy (Hinotori is definitely the easiest of the bunch, and I still have yet to beat even that one), but they're all innately playable even if you suck at shmups, and they all do a really nice job of rather seamlessly blending adventure and shmup into one delicious package. -Tom
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Post by Woody Alien on Oct 17, 2016 17:02:27 GMT -5
Interestingly this blog post discusses the fact that some "normal" shmups were way harder than bullet hells, especially if they have some special gimmick like this one. (by the way I've never heard about this Scorpius game)
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Post by The Great Klaid on Oct 17, 2016 17:05:27 GMT -5
Interestingly this blog post discusses the fact that some "normal" shmups were way harder than bullet hells, especially if they have some special gimmick like this one. (by the way I've never heard about this Scorpius game) That's how I feel about it. Gradius is fucking hard. And it doesn't really give you a chance to learn the game like a bullet hell shooter does.
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Post by wyrdwad on Oct 17, 2016 17:52:06 GMT -5
Interestingly this blog post discusses the fact that some "normal" shmups were way harder than bullet hells, especially if they have some special gimmick like this one. (by the way I've never heard about this Scorpius game) That's how I feel about it. Gradius is fucking hard. And it doesn't really give you a chance to learn the game like a bullet hell shooter does. Interestingly, I recently won auctions for Gradius 2 and Salamander cartridges for my MSX -- games which I was a little hesitant to play on account of my general suckitude with typical precision-based shmups. After playing both for several hours, I found Gradius 2 to be an extremely challenging but wholly engaging game -- and despite its challenge level, I've been able to get to stage 4 without too much trouble, and feel like I could get farther with a little more practice. As for Salamander, I initially liked it better than Gradius 2 due to the (initially) expanded power-ups, but have since decided that it's WAY TOO FRICKING TOUGH. I literally *cannot* beat stage one for the life of me -- no matter how many times I try, I always die either before or at the section with the moving stalagmites and stalactites. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Now, I've heard the MSX version of Salamander both features longer stages and is more punishing than other versions, but nonetheless, I genuinely feel it may be one of the most difficult shmups I've ever played... whereas Gradius 2 feels "tough but fair" to me. I don't know if MSX Gradius 2 is just particularly easy compared to other Gradius games, or if I just kind of "meshed" with it, but either way, I definitely feel like every bullet-hell game I've ever played is WAY harder than Gradius 2... though I'd stand a better chance with bullet-hell games than Salamander, at the very least. -Tom
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Post by IrishNinja on Oct 17, 2016 18:14:33 GMT -5
i love so many shmups and i don't think ive beaten like any of em, maybe the newshcool ones that let you keep trying like deathsmiles but musha, blazing lasers etc are never getting done
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Post by klausien on Oct 17, 2016 19:39:33 GMT -5
Reading through everyone's posts, I see another wrinkle. Even casual play is a form of practice, so the more you play, the better you get. You don't need to play for score or a 1CC to get better at these games. Earlier shmups are more memorization-based than newer games, but it is still important to learn enemy placement in danmaku shooters. There is also a rhythm to a good shooter. I was horrible at modern shooters until I gave Mars Matrix some time. The Takumi bullet vacuum bomb, along with the one button play, and lack of touch deaths helped me get comfortable with dodging effectively. It requires tapping and looking at the ship. As I've said before, the Seimitsu LS-58 has greatly improved my play as well. The increased accuracy in movement helps, as does the ease of button tapping over mashing on a pad.
I am nowhere near a power player, and my skills are not what they were when I was in my 20s, but all the years of practice allow me to go at least a couple stages without a death on most games. Well, games other than DaiFukkatsu, SaiDaiOuJou and Pink Sweets. Those are brutal. Ibara is also insane. At least Pink Sweets has Muchi Muchi Pork, which is a blast even for a casual player.
I also need to drop a non sequitur endorsement of Raiden Fighters Aces on the 360. I have a nostalgic attachment to it from the arcade, but the inclusion of 3 excellent titles makes it a must-have. It is a much better buy than Raiden IV. I also love Deathsmiles, but that one is more controversial. Caladrius is meh.
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Post by Allie on Oct 17, 2016 19:49:05 GMT -5
In response to the comments about current shmups pandering to the small ultra-hardcore groups who master these game thoroughly, there have been games like this for a while now. Battle Garegga (1996) is just about unwinnable with one credit unless you learn to manipulate the game's hidden "rank" (read: dynamic difficulty) system, otherwise the late game will throw literally undodgeable patterns at you. The end result is probably the only shmup where powering up is rare, and deliberate suicides are commmonplace. Ibara is even worse. You have to know the exact places to intentionally kill yourself.
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Post by Angel No. 55 on Oct 17, 2016 20:00:24 GMT -5
In response to the comments about current shmups pandering to the small ultra-hardcore groups who master these game thoroughly, there have been games like this for a while now. Battle Garegga (1996) is just about unwinnable with one credit unless you learn to manipulate the game's hidden "rank" (read: dynamic difficulty) system, otherwise the late game will throw literally undodgeable patterns at you. The end result is probably the only shmup where powering up is rare, and deliberate suicides are commmonplace. Ibara is even worse. You have to know the exact places to intentionally kill yourself. Oh wow. ...though I'm actually a bit curious. At the risk of somewhat derailing this thread, can you tell me more about how insane its difficulty is?
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