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Post by Allie on Oct 17, 2016 20:02:35 GMT -5
Ibara is even worse. You have to know the exact places to intentionally kill yourself. Oh wow. ...though I'm actually a bit curious. At the risk of somewhat derailing this thread, can you tell me more about how insane its difficulty is? Basically, you have to figure out the best places to sacrifice a life to lower your rank without jumping the gun too early.
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Post by Angel No. 55 on Oct 17, 2016 20:16:29 GMT -5
Oh wow. ...though I'm actually a bit curious. At the risk of somewhat derailing this thread, can you tell me more about how insane its difficulty is? Basically, you have to figure out the best places to sacrifice a life to lower your rank without jumping the gun too early. Uh, I meant, the game in general, not just the suicides.
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Post by Maciej Miszczyk on Oct 17, 2016 23:28:55 GMT -5
Interestingly this blog post discusses the fact that some "normal" shmups were way harder than bullet hells, especially if they have some special gimmick like this one. (by the way I've never heard about this Scorpius game) That's how I feel about it. Gradius is fucking hard. And it doesn't really give you a chance to learn the game like a bullet hell shooter does. some of the games in the series are pretty hard but the first one is mostly about memorizing the first few levels enough to get fully powered up. when fully powered up, the shield protects you from enemy fire and your weapons just destroy everything in your path. when you know how long the shield lasts, it's not hard to have it almost always on. on the other hand, R-Type games always kick my ass no matter how much I memorize them.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Oct 17, 2016 23:55:12 GMT -5
That's how I feel about it. Gradius is fucking hard. And it doesn't really give you a chance to learn the game like a bullet hell shooter does. some of the games in the series are pretty hard but the first one is mostly about memorizing the first few levels enough to get fully powered up. when fully powered up, the shield protects you from enemy fire and your weapons just destroy everything in your path. when you know how long the shield lasts, it's not hard to have it almost always on. on the other hand, R-Type games always kick my ass no matter how much I memorize them. But you know what? Dying in a Bullet Hell Shooter loses you nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2016 22:24:31 GMT -5
This is also the reason why I never understood the appeal of Touhou Project (outside of the fapping material... bet that most "fans" are in it just for the porn). I was in it for the non-H doujins (they could be surprisingly good!) and the fighting games, but a combination of ZUN's laziness in bringing more of the games stateside and the latest fighting game having Reisen as a PS4 version exclusive character were the last straw. That and despite being one of the easier games Imperishable Night having a whole ending blocked off if you continue. Touhou is one of the EASIER bullet hell shooters and it's still got the NEENER NEENER attitude, even from someone I can personally profess is as friendly as ZUN. It's a fucking mess.
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Post by silentstorm on Oct 24, 2016 6:02:35 GMT -5
This is also the reason why I never understood the appeal of Touhou Project (outside of the fapping material... bet that most "fans" are in it just for the porn). I was in it for the non-H doujins (they could be surprisingly good!) and the fighting games, but a combination of ZUN's laziness in bringing more of the games stateside and the latest fighting game having Reisen as a PS4 version exclusive character were the last straw. That and despite being one of the easier games Imperishable Night having a whole ending blocked off if you continue. Touhou is one of the EASIER bullet hell shooters and it's still got the NEENER NEENER attitude, even from someone I can personally profess is as friendly as ZUN. It's a fucking mess. God i hate neener neener attitude, even Blue Revolver, an shmup specifically made for both hardcore and newbie players, having two difficulties with dynamic difficulty(the worse you do, the less bullets and such appear and the better you do the harder the game becomes), along with missions that have remixed versions of stages where the player has to focus on one aspect of shmups along with a stage select mode where one just selects an stage with the loadout they want to practice the stage for story mode, has the neener neener attitude. Only in the hardest difficulty setting in story mode can you fight the True Last Boss, and to fight the boss you must not use any continue, and this is for a game that wants to help newbies get into the genre, it's even worse because that difficulty does not have dynamic difficulty and is much harder than anything else in the game, it's a big jump in difficulty for anyone who played the rest of the game even. I freaking hate that, not everyone has the skills and time to perfect and 1CC a shmup and denying people content just because they are not good is a freaking jerk move.
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Post by retr0gamer on Oct 24, 2016 7:18:50 GMT -5
The last shmup I really enjoyed casually was Gradius V. The treasure shooters have a great feature where every hour of the game you play you get an extra credit to play with. It means even if you are stuck you feel like you are getting better and have something to work towards. I never get tired of playing Radiant Silvergun because of this even if I've not even gotten close to finishing it, my best is the giant battleship stage. I also managed to eventually finish off Gradius V and Ikaruga in 4 credits because of this system.
However the other problem then is that the hardcore crowd can basically play these games indefinitely when they know them so well.
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Post by Maciej Miszczyk on Oct 24, 2016 13:11:33 GMT -5
I freaking hate that, not everyone has the skills and time to perfect and 1CC a shmup and denying people content just because they are not good is a freaking jerk move. really? I just think of it as a sort of bonus content for skilled players - not unlike, for example, hidden areas that require beating difficult optional bosses. less of a punishment for newbies and more of a reward (and a nice surprise if you don't find it beforehand) for people who spent a lot of time with the game. generally, I'd rather have a reward that only the skilled can get than a completionist reward that requires grinding or looking for collectibles.
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Post by cambertian on Oct 24, 2016 13:23:23 GMT -5
I freaking hate that, not everyone has the skills and time to perfect and 1CC a shmup and denying people content just because they are not good is a freaking jerk move. really? I just think of it as a sort of bonus content for skilled players - not unlike, for example, hidden areas that require beating difficult optional bosses.I hate that too, albeit somewhat irrationally. It makes being a casual completionist all that much harder. As for casual shump shmup play, I used to play stuff like Fantasy Zone 2 back when I was hungry for games to emulate. I sucked at it and only got to Stage 2 by chance, but it was enjoyable for all of 15 minutes...
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Post by jcrankin on Oct 26, 2016 4:01:56 GMT -5
I have played casual most of my life with games like Tyrian, Solaris 104, and Jets and Guns, though perhaps some of my old favourites would qualify for hardcore (Disposable Hero gets ridiculous at times, SWIV was balls hard, Battle Squadron as well, R-Type Delta...), only tackling danmaku and the like in the past 5-6 years, starting with 2hu. In general, I do 1CC challenges only if I really really *really* like the game a lot because I'm still not very good at it - currently I'm training on Crimzon Clover, but (so far) stages 3-4 is as far as I can get on one credit there. Extra 1CC scenes and story are a nice bonus as long as the game is not too ridiculous (not a SHMUP, but Aria in Necrodancer is a prime example of cockblocking the storyline with ludicrous perfect play requirement).
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Post by Magma MK-II on Oct 26, 2016 8:50:08 GMT -5
I'd really like to say a big F*** YOU to all the elitist shmupfriends who want to impose a "right" way to play and keep vomiting things like 1CC, score and such bullshit.
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Post by silentstorm on Oct 26, 2016 9:06:49 GMT -5
Extra 1CC scenes and story are a nice bonus as long as the game is not too ridiculous (not a SHMUP, but Aria in Necrodancer is a prime example of cockblocking the storyline with ludicrous perfect play requirement). This, hell, i haven't even tried to beat Necrodancer with Aria after i learned how she plays, i don't even need to try to know i could and would never beat Necrodancer with Aria, even then, some people say Aria is not that hard and tell people to get good with her. The same goes for really hard shmups and other games that stop an player from getting the full story and content if they do not an ridiculously hard challenge, like beating an CAVE shmup in one credit or beating Crypt of the Necrodancer with Aria, alot of players do not have that kind of skill, or do not have that much free time to play the game so much they become good enough to beat the challenge, and that is if they don't get tired of constantly playing the same game over and over again just to get an piece of the story or fight one boss, at that point, alot of players will just go to Youtube to see what they missed. Not that Necrodancer's story is really very good and anything, but it still would be nice if players didn't have to beat an challenge that only hardcore gamers seem to be able to beat just to get an cutscene or two, well, at least Necrodancer has an really really good soundtrack, and it allows for custom soundtracks too, i tell you, playing an rythm roguelite game while only Super Sentai openings were playing was pretty weird and fun.
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Post by Angel No. 55 on Oct 26, 2016 12:11:47 GMT -5
Now that people are talking about the disgusting "neener neener" attitude in many recent shmups, I'd like to elaborate more on Touhou's case. All games (not just IN) block off one ending if you continue. Two games (EoSD and MoF) block off one ending solely for playing on the easiest difficulty. In EoSD it's clearly deliberate - the difficulty select clearly indicates Easy has only 5 stages instead of 6, and when you defeat the 5th boss she admonishes the heroines for not trying hard enough and they leave. BAD END! MoF is arguably more insulting as the final attack of the final boss is accidentally harder on Easy than on Normal, and on top of that there's no indication anywhere that you're getting Bad End'd on Easy until you 1cc the whole thing. After all this, it looks like there's always an out in YouTube to view the endings, right? Wrong.Blame the fanbase for this - there was one point when ZUN asked players to please not spoil the endings to others, trying to keep them as a reward for those who invest, but the fandom complied like you wouldn't believe. Touhou endings are very hard to come across on YouTube - This is the only collection of them I could find, and they stop at TH12.8, it's missing 3 major entries released after the videos were made, and the endings for the PC-98 games are untranslated (they got translated circa 2014).
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Post by The Great Klaid on Oct 26, 2016 16:04:15 GMT -5
I'd really like to say a big F*** YOU to all the elitist shmupfriends who want to impose a "right" way to play and keep vomiting things like 1CC, score and such bullshit. I mean, there's no one like that here. But, as I say it's the only worthwhile reason to play SHMUPs. I'm kind of offended.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2016 19:45:11 GMT -5
Now that people are talking about the disgusting "neener neener" attitude in many recent shmups, I'd like to elaborate more on Touhou's case. All games (not just IN) block off one ending if you continue. Two games (EoSD and MoF) block off one ending solely for playing on the easiest difficulty. In EoSD it's clearly deliberate - the difficulty select clearly indicates Easy has only 5 stages instead of 6, and when you defeat the 5th boss she admonishes the heroines for not trying hard enough and they leave. BAD END! MoF is arguably more insulting as the final attack of the final boss is accidentally harder on Easy than on Normal, and on top of that there's no indication anywhere that you're getting Bad End'd on Easy until you 1cc the whole thing. After all this, it looks like there's always an out in YouTube to view the endings, right? Wrong.Blame the fanbase for this - there was one point when ZUN asked players to please not spoil the endings to others, trying to keep them as a reward for those who invest, but the fandom complied like you wouldn't believe. Touhou endings are very hard to come across on YouTube - This is the only collection of them I could find, and they stop at TH12.8, it's missing 3 major entries released after the videos were made, and the endings for the PC-98 games are untranslated (they got translated circa 2014). In retrospect, ZUN is an example of how you can be a nice guy and insufferably pretentious/egotistical at the same time. I regret spending actual money on import copies of some of the games.
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