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Ketsui
May 14, 2010 14:46:27 GMT -5
Post by Strider on May 14, 2010 14:46:27 GMT -5
I hate to say it, but when I had my (drama-free) departure from the Touhou community, the zeitgeist was definitely tacking in that direction.
- HC
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Deleted
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Ketsui
May 16, 2010 13:54:22 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on May 16, 2010 13:54:22 GMT -5
It's just as funny to me because I also think the same way about Touhou fans (though they seem to rise to a whole new level of wackiness in my book because it's a combination of ridiculous shoot-em-up and the fact that they all go nuts over the character designs). I hope you mean they freak out over awful the designs are. Good god. That guy can make a great shooter with some really good music, but he can't draw for shit.
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Ketsui
May 17, 2010 1:23:58 GMT -5
Post by cj iwakura on May 17, 2010 1:23:58 GMT -5
No, he can't, but I'll credit ZUN this; at least he doesn't whore his characters out with trashy outfits.
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Ketsui
Jun 4, 2010 19:53:21 GMT -5
Post by kog3100edw on Jun 4, 2010 19:53:21 GMT -5
The points brought up about the Cave fanbase are the same ones you can bring up about ANY fanbase.
There is a fanbase. There is a hardcore contingent of that fanbase. There is a thin-skinned, defensive segment of that hardcore contingent. There is a vocal group within that thin-skinned hardcore contingent.
And its the people with the strongest opinions, usually negative, who most often feel compelled to offer them.
So. Kurt runs afoul of Cave pricks because the Cave fanbase HAS pricks in it. And they scour the internet and look for any little word about their games. And for anything positive or negative said. They are not going to take any criticism of Cave shmups (from an outsider at any rate) very well and will be sure and let you know that.
It isn't any different from any other cult following with members that feel misunderstood or misrepresented. There are plenty of Cave fans, myself included, that may not agree with stupid, ignorant, amateur, casual, gay Kurt Kalata but that's okay. He is entitled to his stupid, ignorant, amateur, casual, gay opinion.
Just kidding Kurt. The writeup was fine. Even Cave fans like myself need to realise that not everyone shares the same reason for playing games. Kurt doesn't need to like any or all Cave games anymore than I need to like point & click adventures (which are stupid and gay).
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Ketsui
Jun 4, 2010 20:10:55 GMT -5
Post by Discoalucard on Jun 4, 2010 20:10:55 GMT -5
You're absolutely correct. They're just a particular sunset of the fanbase that I happen to have a habit of irking, even when I don't really mean it.
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Ketsui
Jun 5, 2010 23:41:34 GMT -5
Post by fahlim003 on Jun 5, 2010 23:41:34 GMT -5
A correction to the article. The artwork/design of this game is not by Joker Jun (Junya Inoue). It was done by the late Tomahoru Saito. world-of-arcades.net/Cave/Tomoharu%20Saito/TSaito.htmAlso, Cave's president (Kenichi Takano) was not the person directly involved in overseeing the completion of Ketsui X on 360. It was Ichiro Mihara, the vice-president of Arika. This was the man who played a large role in the cited PS2 Arika / Cave ports and was very familiar with Ketsui in this case. Mr Mihara is also involved with 5pb in seeing the completion of the DoDonPachi Dai Ou Jou Black Label X patch, which should be due out sometime this year.
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Ketsui
Jun 6, 2010 0:03:47 GMT -5
Post by Discoalucard on Jun 6, 2010 0:03:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the head-up. The art doesn't look like Joker's typical stuff but the place I sourced it from got it wrong, so, hey!
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Ketsui
Jun 6, 2010 14:29:59 GMT -5
Post by daimakaimura on Jun 6, 2010 14:29:59 GMT -5
I would like to add that this game maybe has one of the greatest OST's ever check this album out if you can find it "Dodonpachi Dai-ou-jou - Ketsui ~KizunaJigokuTachi~ Original Sound Track"
:^)
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Ketsui
Jun 6, 2010 16:28:39 GMT -5
Post by brianc on Jun 6, 2010 16:28:39 GMT -5
There's a lot of hostility towards folks that don't subscribe to Cave's hyper competitive atmosphere, especially other subgenres of shooters. Just visit the SHMUPS forums for a taste of it. I usually tend to get into arguments with them because Cave's console ports aren't nearly as full featured as they should be. From my impressions, while there are some "vocal" members there, I don't see this so much currently. I'm under the impression that some members simply disagree that unlockables are necessary for games to be full featured. They can be nice, but the main game should be the meat. I found many unlockables or added features to be tacked on filler (not always the case, though). Disagreeing with this has nothing to do with cave. I find the very idea that competing for scores is just something to impress "self-important" people to be off putting. Games have been designed for score since Pac-Man. Many games take a huge amount of practice and skill to get good at. Playing for score isn't something there to only impress fans. It's an indicator of skill. It can be something fun to play for without worrying about what the fans say. Personally, I feel it's better not to worry about fans at all, though, I'm under the impression (hopefully mistaken) that some people who aren't "awful fans" are being stereotyped as such because of dissenting views about continues and unlockables.
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Ketsui
Jun 6, 2010 17:29:46 GMT -5
Post by Discoalucard on Jun 6, 2010 17:29:46 GMT -5
Playing for score isn't part of the modern gaming scene mentality. Unlockables provides an extra meat for these people, and as long it doesn't harm the core experience (which it does, admittedly, in certain fighting games), they should always, always be part of the equation for arcade-style games. The fact that people would even argue against aiming for a broader audience is part of that arrogance, who would rather seek to correct those who are wrong rather than staining the purity of their beloved genre, huddling into their own little circle, congratulating each other for being more awesome than the rest.
When dissenting views are presented as pompous jackassery, I'm OK with mocking them relentlessly, honestly. This shouldn't be taken as an affront towards genre fans as a whole, just the ones that give them a bad name.
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Ketsui
Jun 6, 2010 18:16:09 GMT -5
Post by brianc on Jun 6, 2010 18:16:09 GMT -5
(I mangled this post completely...see below. No disrespect intended, honestly!)
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Ketsui
Jun 6, 2010 18:38:48 GMT -5
Post by Discoalucard on Jun 6, 2010 18:38:48 GMT -5
Goddammit. I edited your post instead of hitting quote. Sorry about that. It just isn't. This isn't me being arrogant or anything, it's the reality of modern gaming culture. A vast majority of games haven't been made for scoring, outside of a few select genres, for the past fifteen years or so, if not more. They've taught the gaming audience at large that games are meant to be beaten, or at least experienced. So when a game comes along that is feasibly beaten in 20 minutes and they're told that you're supposed to play it over and over to get better, they cock their eyebrows because that's just not how games are made nowadays. I'm not saying everything needs to be homogenous and that everyone who even tries should just stop, but there's a definite reason why people give them such resistance. Not the same thing at all. Adding unlockables, as you've just stated, are extras, which are welcome! It's not hacking out bits of what made them great for a wider audience, they're adding rather than detracting (if done properly.)
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Ketsui
Jun 8, 2010 12:57:04 GMT -5
Post by kog3100edw on Jun 8, 2010 12:57:04 GMT -5
Yeah, it isn't that there are no score-based games or genres left, it's that the scene overall doesn't favor the concept anymore.
I don't think Kurt is being arrogant in stating that. It is the root reason for shmup/STG players to lament their favorite genre is sidelined, dead or dying. It isn't that the genre is bad, or that score-based playing is literally wrong (Kurt's distaste for it is opinion), but it is a fact that it isn't POPULAR.
Modern gaming goals... and even someone as old and old school as myself is guilty of this... are about collection and/or completion.
People who bitch about unlockables, or indeed achievements, don't have a leg to stand on if the this sort of content doesn't detract from the main game experience. What they are objecting to is the DISTRACTION they believe is happening. The dilution of purity.
But can't you self-discipline to ignore that stuff if it dilutes the experience in your opinion? That's what I do. It is the same sort of self-control required to NOT USE CONTINUES... a mainstay of the hardcore shooter ethos. If you can discipline yourself to use limited continues you can certainly push off the distractions of achievements or unlockables.
Obviously I'm speaking strictly to the individual game experience. There probably is an argument that the need to add a lot of extras is making certain genres unpalatable now... to players or publishers. So that is the other lament of the shmuppers. That today's player cannot see the value in the older stripped-down game without a lot of bonus content... and the publishers won't either.
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Ketsui
Jun 8, 2010 13:03:21 GMT -5
Post by kog3100edw on Jun 8, 2010 13:03:21 GMT -5
Additionally, the playing field can be changed if publishers of arcade style games can be clever about marketing, media, and price points.
See Afterburner Climax, downloadable game at 15 bucks.
See Deathsmiles NA Limited Edition, great packaging and extras for 40 bucks.
If you can get 'streamlined pricing for streamlined' games then that juggles Kurt's value for money concern quite a bit.
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Ketsui
Jun 8, 2010 15:19:10 GMT -5
Post by brianc on Jun 8, 2010 15:19:10 GMT -5
Yeah, it isn't that there are no score-based games or genres left, it's that the scene overall doesn't favor the concept anymore. The Rock Band games have quite a following and those are arguably based on score. Why does it have to be about popularity? Nothing to do with unlockables, but there are arguments about difficulty of the main game being altered to appeal to a wider audience, when the game was made that way for a reason. Difficulty levels are a way around it, but adding things that aren't necessary to the game itself doesn't necessarily mean that it will make a game appeal to an audience it isn't intended for. I find a problem with games like Donkey Kong 64 that focus waaay to much on collection. Where collection is the main focus, rather than the gameplay itself. I don't have a problem with them being there (and same for many at shmups). The problem many have is that games are being judged on how many unlockables a game has rather than by the game itself. Again, they aren't distractions (unless they do something to hamper gameplay), but they aren't requirements either. Some of these aren't older games, but modern games that are designed to be challenging. Not to mention that many modern games DO have some sort of scoring. I also don't find modern shmups, which are in many ways more complex than older ones to be stripped down just because they don't have a ton of unlockables or the same amount of stages as the full version of Tyrian 2000 or Geometery Wars Galaxies (though I like how it has a lot of content). So yeah, it's not a great deal of content a have a problem with (though for scoring games it can be a problem if the main game is too long), but the idea that it's a requirement for a game to be complete. I also disagree that a game has to have the challenge toned down in order to be acceptable (though I do feel they should have modes to appeal to a wider audience, which many do). Another thing is that these games are not designed to be short to be "old school", but because making the main game too lengthy can detract from a game designed around scoring. It was assumed that these games aren't designed around score in one topic just because they end, which makes no sense to me. They are designed around a specific length and they end at a certain point to prevent the game from going on too long. Another thing is that some older games like Robotron could be played indefinitely (literally over a day) to obtain a certain score, which is more insane than many of the things complained about with scoring games that have an ending.
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