|
Ketsui
Jun 9, 2010 12:16:52 GMT -5
Post by kog3100edw on Jun 9, 2010 12:16:52 GMT -5
If a dev wants its 'STG' to appeal to a WIDE audience, they may have to add in too much to keep the traditional appeal, as you say, changing it from being an STG.
If they want to (merely) appeal to a WIDER audience than they have now, then they may be able to do that with some of the perks under discussion in this thread... things that give today's audience the percieved longevity that it wants without losing the traditional aspects of an STG.
See the difference?
I don't see 2d shooters, an old school traditional gaming style, ever becoming bestselling titles on the scale of Call of Duty or Super Mario games. If you make a 2d STG then you've effectively decided you are not going for the big part of the video game market. I think unlockables, achievements and DLC may not make the STG more viable in today's market, but the kind of extra modes, difficulty settings, and training stuff Cave has been including could work if word got out effectively.
With all of this we are probably talking about sales improvements by degrees, nothing earthshaking. STGs are going to remain niche. Publishers would love that niche to expand (and therefore potential sales to increase). I think every little percentage point is a bonus, especially if adding extra modes can be done quickly and economically. All the assets are there already it just requires some reprogramming.
I'm not sure how anyone who loves STGs, as I do, cannot see 'more value' as better for the game. That the larger part of the video game market wants or needs extra stuff may seem unfortunate for you, but it doesn't have to affect YOUR gaming experience. You can take away from it your same old feelings every time, regardless of whether you play X-modes or try to unlock extra ships.
These things are not going to make STG sales explode into greatness. But any little bit that helps bring new blood in, even if only a few bodies, is a bit more help in keeping the genre on life support.
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 10, 2010 19:46:14 GMT -5
Post by kyouki on Jun 10, 2010 19:46:14 GMT -5
I guess what I am trying to say is, the kind of things they could add without changing what makes STGs unique would not get people who aren't interested in the first place to play them. As you know, the PS2 ports of Dodonpachi Daioujou and Espgaluda both include tons of training modes (one where enemies don't shoot bullets so you can learn the enemy patterns), as well as perfect play DVDs.
That stuff is great, I have absolutely no problem with them adding these modes! I don't even care whether they give you unlimited credits from the start or make you unlock them. Nor do I care if they add ships to unlock or whatever (as long as the ships from the arcade version are available from the start). But it's not gonna stop people from saying, "I died every few seconds but kept continuing and I finished the game in 20 minutes!!! What a rip off!"
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 10, 2010 20:28:09 GMT -5
Post by Discoalucard on Jun 10, 2010 20:28:09 GMT -5
See, I feel that that it kind of would. Credit feeding happens because people either don't know how to play the game, or simply feel they lack the skill to get better. These sort of things at least provide some incentive to learn the game a bit and not just continue blindly to the end. It certainly wouldn't convert the masses, as Mr. Kog3100 has stated, but it could help widen their appeal a tiny bit, and I can guarantee you they'd review better.
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 10, 2010 21:05:06 GMT -5
Post by kyouki on Jun 10, 2010 21:05:06 GMT -5
See, I feel that that it kind of would. Credit feeding happens because people either don't know how to play the game, or simply feel they lack the skill to get better. These sort of things at least provide some incentive to learn the game a bit and not just continue blindly to the end. It certainly wouldn't convert the masses, as Mr. Kog3100 has stated, but it could help widen their appeal a tiny bit, and I can guarantee you they'd review better. I guess I'd like to see what would happen if they were to officially release Espgaluda II outside of Japan. Does the 360 version have training modes? Or is that only with the CAVE PS2 games?
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 10, 2010 21:14:33 GMT -5
Post by Discoalucard on Jun 10, 2010 21:14:33 GMT -5
I think part of the problem may be overgeneralizing who shumps are aimed for when many are aimed at different audiences? Maybe that's why you aren't as in to Cave games as in shmups like R-Type or Gradius? It's unrealistic to expect a vertical curtain fire to be set up like R-Type or Gradius, when they are, as far as I know, from the vertical enemies, scoring system, and bullet patterns model, rather than more reliant on stage based terrain like many of the R-Type or Gradius games. Maybe Otomedius is more your speed? Sadly Otomedius is kinda mediocre by Konami shooter standards. It's not terrible, but it's caught between trying to be a modern score-oriented shooter and a classic Gradius/Parodius style game, and neither really works. The 360 versions of Mushihime-sama Futari and Espgaluda II have pretty great Novice modes that allow you to concentrate on scoring without getting overwhelmed by the bullets. I wholeheartedly endorse both.
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 10, 2010 21:21:21 GMT -5
Post by brianc on Jun 10, 2010 21:21:21 GMT -5
Sadly Otomedius is kinda mediocre by Konami shooter standards. It's not terrible, but it's caught between trying to be a modern score-oriented shooter and a classic Gradius/Parodius style game, and neither really works. I heard mixed things, so I wasn't sure, but I know it has a lot of content and I heard it plays more like a traditional Konami shooter. Thanks for the impressions. cool. I haven't played Cave games, but I like some of the curtain fire homebrews like those from x.x games. I plan to get 360, but I wish more of the games came to the US. I still need to get Dodonpachi for my Saturn. The closest thing I have to a Cave game is Batsugun. I have a feeling I'll probably get into some Cave games because I like the ABA homebrews and a lot of Toaplan shmups. I also heard that Espgaluda II regular has no region protection. One thing that's ironic about New Super Mario Bros. Wii is that it doesn't have much more in the way of extras than previous Mario games, but sold like hotcakes just because it's a Mario game (I have it because it is a good game, but considering it's 2 1/2 D and harder than some previous Mario games, it probably wouldn't have sold as much without Mario). Maybe that's a good way to sell a non casual shmup to the casual crowd. Put Mario in and it will be an instant seller!
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 10, 2010 21:23:16 GMT -5
Post by Jave on Jun 10, 2010 21:23:16 GMT -5
I'd like to throw rRootage out there as an example of a shooter that has a pretty good system for easing you in. The game is basically a metric fuckton of boss battles, but they're all broken up into discreet stages that you can play in any order you feel like. There's no continues either, so if you want to beat a particular stage, you need to do it with the lives you're given, and the game records the top score for each stage. The early ones are pretty easy, and the difficulty ramps up gently and gets pretty nuts near the end. That and I love the art style. (apologies if I'm pimping a game to a crowd that already knows about it)
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 10, 2010 22:09:51 GMT -5
Post by brianc on Jun 10, 2010 22:09:51 GMT -5
While the learning modes are a great thing, there are many out there who don't care much for tutorials. Jave has a good point with rRootage. Those and other ABA games are free and helpful for easing into curtain fire games. I know a good way to prevent credit feeding. Credit feeding in some versions of Gradius where you start up without powerups in a part that is extremely difficult without them.
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 10, 2010 23:02:38 GMT -5
Post by kimimi on Jun 10, 2010 23:02:38 GMT -5
I don't think tutorials help, because the very idea of playing for score is something that reviewers just aren't interested in. I know they aren't the best shmups ever, but when a UK mag has deigned to cover Homura/Gunbird/XIII Stag/etc I can't think of a single instance where the phrase "scoring mechanic" even came up, let alone figured into the overall rating.
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 10, 2010 23:16:06 GMT -5
Post by kyouki on Jun 10, 2010 23:16:06 GMT -5
That's a good point kimimi, I agree. Although I do not play STGs for score, and I think you can still appreciate them without understanding the scoring mechanic. Just getting better at the game, and doing better and better on a single credit is a lot of fun for me.
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 10, 2010 23:20:44 GMT -5
Post by kimimi on Jun 10, 2010 23:20:44 GMT -5
I agree, and I didn't mean to sound as if the only people reviewing shmups should be people who take photos of the high score table after a 1CC run. I do think though that reviewers should be at the very least aware of the style of play the designers had in mind, even if they'd rather play the game differently.
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 10, 2010 23:22:14 GMT -5
Post by kyouki on Jun 10, 2010 23:22:14 GMT -5
Don't worry, I didn't think you meant that. Just saying that I am not score player and even I feel like reviewers are dropping the ball when it comes to that.
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 11, 2010 1:48:32 GMT -5
Post by KeeperBvK on Jun 11, 2010 1:48:32 GMT -5
Been preaching that for nearly 2.5 years now, but I guess everybody's hopes for another great Konami shooter were just too high for anybody to wholeheartedly believe the more negative reviews.
rRootage is nice for a few plays before you realize that the patterns are way too often repeated with slight variations and just never feel as interesting or well-designed as in other shooters.
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 11, 2010 11:22:36 GMT -5
Post by Jave on Jun 11, 2010 11:22:36 GMT -5
Oh, it's not the best game in the genre, and I'm not really an aficionado either way, I just meant that the way it's structured does a better job of training novice players like myself better than any mere tutorial ever has. Being able to advance at my own pace, while at the same time having direct evidence of progress.
I think that giving a series of very short and increasingly difficult challenge stages, separate from the main game, would get a lot more people like me to at least try these games, as opposed to just looking at them and saying, "yeah, I can't do that."
|
|
|
Ketsui
Jun 11, 2010 12:41:52 GMT -5
Post by brianc on Jun 11, 2010 12:41:52 GMT -5
Been preaching that for nearly 2.5 years now, but I guess everybody's hopes for another great Konami shooter were just too high for anybody to wholeheartedly believe the more negative reviews. I only suggested Otomedius since it's different from the Cave style, but I didn't outright recommend it since I haven't played it and heard mixed things. It's not that I don't believe the reviews, it's more that I don't form an opinion based solely on reviews. On the shmups forum, there were complaints about the tutorials of Knights in the Nightmare, even though they are optional. Personally, I found the tutorials to be a breath of fresh air, but they found them to be too complex and lengthy (I rather have them included myself, especially since the game length wasn't compromised and it's a complex game). I think it's good to ask around and look up tips for games, but nothing is going to change that it takes practice to get good at any game. I rather have extras that encourage doing your best, rather than the opposite.
|
|