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Post by caoslayer on Mar 19, 2012 16:15:45 GMT -5
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Post by kal on Mar 19, 2012 20:58:42 GMT -5
If you think Midichlorians aren't worse you don't really know anything about Star Wars (or alternatively haven't really considered the implications). They re-contextualise the entire original trilogy. "Use the Force" is not a mystical term but now relates to essentially "Use the space bacteria" the entire good and evil no longer makes any real sense because again, there's no zen anymore and it invalidates pretty much every speech Yoda ever gave about *The Force*. Also Luke is now the chosen one by...space bacteria...what a wonderful heart warming story. It's absolutely no surprise that the term Midichlorian is pretty much buried from that point on. Mass Effect 3 on the other hand The ending changes the Reapers from universal monsters to intergalactic gardeners. Which actually makes more than absolutely no sense...how do you think plants feel about getting pruned all the time?
As for your specific complaints - We're never given any real context of time span between Shepard's entering the Citadel and the Normandy's flight - while not a great reason it's entirely possible that given the apparent failure of the mission the humans had been on the retreat...then suddenly the Citadel starts to EXPLODE INTO MASSIVE ENERGY given that no one knows what's supposed to happening (for all they know, this is a Reaper's kill the entire galaxy bomb) as the only one privy to Shepard's choice is busy exploding or disintegrating or whatever happens in your ending. Running actually makes a great deal of sense.
Additionally keep in mind that whatever beings originally believed that Synthetic rebellion and organic destruction is inevitable are not necessarily perfect themselves. They could be entirely wrong but that's THEIR opinion, clearly you're not supposed to agree because it's REAPER logic. They've seen 100's of cycles go by and they know how it ends. The weapon you have to fight the Reaper's gives you a choice but it's not a magic kill all Reaper's and everyone lives happily ever after deus ex machima and I personally appreciate that they give you a relatively tough choice.
Finally I don't believe everyone becomes Cyborgs - the whole point of the synthesis ending is they become something *else* a form of life that hasn't existed before. While it's perfectly fine to dislike this part of the ending you don't have to choose this ending. Shepard can call off the Reapers with the control choice and leave the universe to its own devices.
Honestly I've thought a little about it and decided that the Reaper's may simply refer to the fact that all organic life will eventually be entirely supplemented by machine. Not necessarily in a violent coup but that since Synthetics are superior in all ways apparently there's a sense of inevitability that all must become machine.
Whether you like the ending or not it's not entirely STUPID KILLED ENTIRE FRANCHISE forever dumb, at least in my opinion. First, as you stated, no one brings up space bacteria anymore. On the other hand, Mass Effect will always end like this. As for the rest... First, that's really not a good enough excuse. For one, characters that apparently died in the rush to the transport thingy show up just fine on the Normandy. For another, the whole scene is just completely arbitrary. It's like they hotglued some leftover sequence from another ending plan without any regard for context, as if trying to squeeze some element of excitement out of the ending without ever figuring out why it's happening.
Second, while the player may not agree with it, the point is that Shepard doesn't even argue. He just goes along with star kid like he's 100% correct. And how exactly does synthetic life and organic life merge in the first place? Does this mean that Joker somehow grew circuit boards under his skin and that creepy EDI-bot now has functioning reproductive organs? How does that work? Where did the additional mass come from? Was it just FMA-style alchemy of changing one type of matter into another type of matter? For a series that's been relatively consistent with its pseudoscience, this space magic comes out of nowhere.
And then there's the whole Control ending, which frankly is a terrible point to end things. I control the Reapers now, so shouldn't I get the choice of what to do with them? We're right at the end here; I'm sure an extra cutscene or two wouldn't have gone overbudget.
I frankly love ambiguous or unhappy endings, but the problem for me is that this isn't one. It's a bargain bin sci-fi "massive galactic choice" that they just sort of assume people will find amazing. Just like the Deus Ex series: all story and characterization go out the window so the player can have a shot at being a meaningless god. In response Although they apparently died - this doesn't actually happen unless you have an extremely low readiness rating (as far as I know). Even if it appears as such you never actually see any bodies of your squadmates.
Shepard not arguing with the Star Child is a bother but again, the AI isn't going to do something different - you're still going to get three choices even if Shepard says that's not how it'll go. As to how the merging occurs, I shouldn't need to point out that how the Mass Effect drive actually functions is an impossibility currently as we understand physics. The fact that a far more advance race could design a device which further breaks our understanding of universal constants doesn't really bother me given that if they really wanted to they could technobabble it away. As I said, if you're looking for an explanation as to exactly what happened to their physical forms, again they become something else - if you need more details I can't help you there. I guess I find it more metaphorical since I'm use to watching art house guff.
Not being able to control the Reapers in the control ending is a bit lame but unless you want to include the option to kill the human race (which would be hilariously renegade) you'd still very quickly say "Reaper's stop killing Galaxy" and it's clear that the core game is supposed to end from that point. From what I've read though it appears Bioware may have been screwing around with the ending towards the last minute which would explain a lot of the little problems it has including lack of further feedback.
Again I'm not saying the ending is great, just that this backlash frankly shocks me since it's mediocre at worst. Probably the biggest cock up of this year in gaming if they thought people would have believed this ending was amazing though. |
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Post by TheGunheart on Mar 19, 2012 21:11:20 GMT -5
On one last note, I present this. Just be warned, it contains major spoilers. Though frankly, I think it's pretty clear the writers just had no idea what they were doing when they wrote Sovereign's dialogue. Everything it said seemed to be contradicted as early as the second game. |
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Post by kal on Mar 19, 2012 21:32:18 GMT -5
Ergh, the Indoctrination theory . Probably the biggest pile of fanwank I've ever seen. My favourite part is how they're overly critical of every part of the ending but anything that disproves that theory is basically "No way, you're wrong". It is infinitely more likely that the ending is riddled with minor inconsistencies and goofy writing mistakes than THAT. John Walker did an interesting write up that helps articulate why some people (like myself) aren't that shaken up. Spoilers obviously. |
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Post by TheGunheart on Mar 19, 2012 22:07:12 GMT -5
Frankly, when the writing is so bad that it takes such a ridiculous fan theory to reconcile any of it, I'd say that's the fault of BioWare instead of the fans.
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Post by Sketcz-1000 on Mar 20, 2012 3:20:25 GMT -5
After Derboo chewed us out I made of point of reading a link someone posted to. Derboo's link was good, but I draw the line at John Walker and stopped right when he started babbling about flash-cards. I also dislike the man's condescending attitude and disregard for what are legitimate complaints from fans. Also: I assume Dragon Age's flash-cards are similar if not the same as those at the end of Suikoden and Suikoden II? That kind of stuff wouldn't have robbed players of anything. It's fantastic when used in films, and it's even better when used in videogames which feature lengthy narratives and many characters. The Suikoden games actually run through 108 flash-cards, one for each Star of Destiny, and they stand as some of my favourite things in the Grand Pantheon of videogaming. More games should use them. My liking and championing of the Suikoden series, the first two anyway, is based partially on its endings. Over the years when people complain of poor narrative, I always hold up the flash-card ending of Suikoden as something which did it right. Ending flash-cards, whether in films or games, are a perfectly legitimate technique for conveying story. They are not tacky, and I can't bring myself to read any further from someone who dismisses them so out of hand. I've been playing games for over 25 years, and for every single game which emphasised the story, I would have appreciated such flash-cards. John Walker sounds like an idiot. |
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Post by megatronbison on Mar 20, 2012 5:21:12 GMT -5
Out of curiousity...how is the game asides from the ending? Don't get me wrong- knowing that essentially all my previous work in the games means nothing is severely anger inducing but I'd like to know how the game works asides from that for when I eventually buy it. (Second hand and severely reduced heh- as I'll always do for any company that pulls the "F*ck you!" with DLC to fans)
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Post by kal on Mar 20, 2012 9:45:51 GMT -5
Out of curiousity...how is the game asides from the ending? Don't get me wrong- knowing that essentially all my previous work in the games means nothing is severely anger inducing but I'd like to know how the game works asides from that for when I eventually buy it. (Second hand and severely reduced heh- as I'll always do for any company that pulls the "F*ck you!" with DLC to fans) It doesn't mean nothing, plenty of things in the previous games impact Mass Effect 3 BEFORE the last 5 minutes. The game itself has more action but less RPG than each Mass Effect before it. Personally I prefer Walker's attitude to ridiculous hyperbole and name calling but that's just me. Highlighting good points isn't disregarding the fans opinions, since RPS already did TWO articles on the negatives. Things aren't usually black and white. |
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Post by The Great Klaid on Mar 20, 2012 10:02:53 GMT -5
After Derboo chewed us out I made of point of reading a link someone posted to. Derboo's link was good, but I draw the line at John Walker and stopped right when he started babbling about flash-cards. I also dislike the man's condescending attitude and disregard for what are legitimate complaints from fans. Also: I assume Dragon Age's flash-cards are similar if not the same as those at the end of Suikoden and Suikoden II? That kind of stuff wouldn't have robbed players of anything. It's fantastic when used in films, and it's even better when used in videogames which feature lengthy narratives and many characters. The Suikoden games actually run through 108 flash-cards, one for each Star of Destiny, and they stand as some of my favourite things in the Grand Pantheon of videogaming. More games should use them. My liking and championing of the Suikoden series, the first two anyway, is based partially on its endings. Over the years when people complain of poor narrative, I always hold up the flash-card ending of Suikoden as something which did it right. Ending flash-cards, whether in films or games, are a perfectly legitimate technique for conveying story. They are not tacky, and I can't bring myself to read any further from someone who dismisses them so out of hand. I've been playing games for over 25 years, and for every single game which emphasised the story, I would have appreciated such flash-cards. John Walker sounds like an idiot. I kind of enjoy those myself. A little better is where some RPGs would pan over all the various towns and you'd see them back on with their lives. Kind of like in FFVIII where you'd Seifer, Raijin, and Fuijin fishing. I like that little recap, sort of like going back through this grand journey to deafeat the demon king and then looking back at how far you came from some little hamlet in the middle of nowhere. Much better then focussing on a couple of people who may have just been shoehorned at the end anyway. |
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Post by megatronbison on Mar 20, 2012 10:04:29 GMT -5
It doesn't mean nothing, plenty of things in the previous games impact Mass Effect 3 BEFORE the last 5 minutes. The game itself has more action but less RPG than each Mass Effect before it. More action eh? That...isn't really what I was hoping for to be honest- never found the shooter-lite gameplay to be one of the series strong points- more a means to an end really :\ Still though- good to hear at least some of the previous decisions affect a portion of the game. Ah well- it should be less than £20 within 4 or 5 months- might be done with Skyrim by then ;D |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 11:12:49 GMT -5
Out of curiousity...how is the game asides from the ending? Don't get me wrong- knowing that essentially all my previous work in the games means nothing is severely anger inducing but I'd like to know how the game works asides from that for when I eventually buy it. (Second hand and severely reduced heh- as I'll always do for any company that pulls the "F*ck you!" with DLC to fans) The game is absolutely fantastic up until the ending. The perfect culmination of everything that's come before. That just makes the ending fiasco all the more insulting. |
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Post by X-pert74 on Mar 20, 2012 16:38:16 GMT -5
I still haven't gotten to the ending yet, but the game itself is pretty cool so far. I dislike how linear the action stages are (similar to Mass Effect 2), but this does have more RPG elements in it than 2 did (I love the return of customized weapon parts!), and I'm liking certain parts of the story so far.
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Post by Sac (a.k.a Icaras) on Mar 20, 2012 18:25:02 GMT -5
I've not really played Mass Effect (I bought ME 1 as a bargain game, but didn't like how FPS the combat felt.).
But I have been seeing alot of complaints about the ending of three recently, and while I don't really fully understand what i've read baout it (Having barely played an hour of one) it seems to boil down that people wanted a hero ending where they got to defeat the baddies and be a hero, but instead the game went a bit shades of gray and even implied the main character was dead.
I've read in the last few pages that some people seem to like those sort of endings, but overall...the majority do not.
That's why there are alot of film (for example) where test audiences get upset, because most people like a happy ending.
Seems to me that bioware have been a bit foolish for not at least allowing players the chance to have a "your character is a hero, saves the day and lives happily" ending.
At the end of the day, i'm pretty confident a majority of preople like a happy or "best" ending.
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Post by TheGunheart on Mar 20, 2012 18:36:13 GMT -5
But I have been seeing alot of complaints about the ending of three recently, and while I don't really fully understand what i've read baout it (Having barely played an hour of one) it seems to boil down that people wanted a hero ending where they got to defeat the baddies and be a hero, but instead the game went a bit shades of gray and even implied the main character was dead. Actually, it's more like... The whole War Asset thing has only a very arbitrary effect on the endgame, and that the three basic endings themselves only differ in the color of the light show, and what state Joker and EDI are in when they exit the Normandy. There's also the fact that it pulls some space magic at the end. And for me personally, it drops the final boss aspect from the first two games entirely. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2012 18:51:54 GMT -5
Actually, I'd say it's more like this: Mass Effect as a series is based around the idea that your choices matter. The ending of Mass Effect 3 bluntly tells you that none of your choices mattered at all. The main method of galactic travel is destroyed in all three endings, basically dooming all life in the galaxy. Also, regardless of how you chose to resolve the issues between the AI race and their organic creators, one ending kills all synthetic life anyway.
The anger here has nothing to do with being a "hero" or having a "best" ending. It's completely about the fact that the endings betray all of the core concepts of the franchise. To be honest, I'm getting kind of pissed with people being so dismissive about this, especially anyone who hasn't played all three games. I can understand how that could happen. You weren't a part of it, so you don't truly understand what's going on. Still, the magnitude of this thing is just unreal. I've never been so insulted by a game before. When people act like "oh, it didn't have sunflowers and bunnies, QQ n00b", it just makes me want to disfigure people with a penknife. |
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