What's that, Xseed? Dungeon crawl, you say?

[cj iwakura]

The creators, I believe. Acquire licensed it.

[Ganelon]

IPM, a Tokyo-based subsidiary of the online gaming company Aeria, is the current owner of the Wizardry name worldwide. They bought the title, as well as all rights for Wiz 6-8, from SirTech Canada / 1259190 Ontario (the remnant companies of the original SirTech post-bankruptcy) back in late 2006.

In early 2008, IPM kickstarted the Wizardry Renaissance (hence the secondary meaning behind the title), ushering in a new wave of Wiz games. Acquire licensed the name for the PSN games. Genterprise licensed the name for the DS games. So-net licensed the name for the mobile game.

[wyrdwad]

As far as I'm aware, too, each of those respective companies has the rights to sub-license the name out to other companies for publication outside Japan -- so we're only dealing with Acquire, rather than dealing both with Acquire AND the original license-holder.

(Don't quote me on that, though, as that's well outside my field of expertise, so there may be stuff going on behind the scenes that I'm not aware of!)

-Tom

[Ganelon]

I don't know if you're allowed to shed light on this or if you're in the know, wyrdwad, but is there any reason companies have been reluctant to localize JP Wizardry games in the past? It's interesting that XSEED is bringing the 2 series that everyone had been waiting for a long time to the US (Wiz and Ys).

It's also interesting that Acquire's streak of having different US localizers for their games continues (like 9 different publishers for 11 games).

[Feynman]

I don't know why Xseed is taking the chance with Wizardry, but I imagine most of those games don't make it out of Japan because the genre is all but dead in the west. Etrian Odyssey is an outlier, and for that matter is more modernized than the typical dungeon crawler. Games like Wizardry don't appeal to the average RPG player, who is primarily concerned with story and characters.

Wizardry games are mainly developed with mechanics-oriented RPG fans in mind, the people who like to shuffle numbers around and poke around in the metagame. That severely limits the potential audience. Combine that with "archaic" game design and static 2D graphics, and there isn't a whole lot there to encourage anybody who doesn't already like the genre to give it a chance.

[wyrdwad]

I'm guessing it's something along the lines of what Feynman just said, yeah. Personally, I have no idea why Wizardry games have been stagnating in the west since Atlus' release on the PS2 -- I've never really followed the series, though I've always been well aware of its impact on gaming in general.

Here's hoping that other people are ALSO aware of its impact, and curious enough to give us money for it.

-Tom

[Ganelon]

We can agree that dungeon crawlers typically haven't sold sell for the reasons feynman mentioned and are still part of a niche genre. And indeed, Etrian Odyssey is one of the few dungeon crawlers that makes the top 10 JP weekly sales and does fine in the US.

But why was Atlus insistent on releasing Class of Heroes and The Dark Spire afterward? As we know, one is a ripoff of questionable origins (based on Wizardry XTH) and the other was generally recognized as a mediocre game.

And then a few companies tried to create their own dungeon crawler IPs back in the DS's earlier days (perhaps inspired by Etrian Odyssey's success) instead of using the Wizardry brand. The choice to avoid Wizardry in lieu of other dungeon crawlers seems very strange.

Anyway, I hope Wizardry will give you all as much success as Ys has apparently given, given the 2 series both being underrated for years despite having august histories.

[wyrdwad]

Me too! (: I've actually never been a huge fan of first-person dungeon crawlers, but being the Falcom fanatic I am, I basically forced myself to check out Dinosaur: Resurrection a couple years back -- and I found myself enjoying it a *lot* more than I thought I would. As a result, I was a bit more willing to give Wizardry a try than I might've been in 2007 or 2008, and I have to say, it's pretty cool! It's my understanding that the original Wizardry was a more comedic/tongue-in-cheek affair, but this one is very dark and atmospheric, much as Dinosaur was. And it plays with its dark imagery and lonesome atmosphere quite well -- it's very engaging, despite its simplicity, and I think anyone with an open mind (or a love of the genre) will really enjoy it.

It also has a TOTALLY KICKASS soundtrack. Seriously, it's one of the best "traditional RPG-style" soundtracks I've heard in YEARS. The guild theme has been stuck in my head for weeks. (:

-Tom

[cj iwakura]

That's a trend carrying over from Tale of the Forsaken Land.

It's probably my favorite console dungeon crawler of all time, if not my favorite period.




But I agree, what I've heard of the PSN game's OST is beautiful.

[loempiavreter]

Hmmm looks ok, ok I prefer Dungeon Crawlers and Roguelikes over your regular rpgs, the less storyline the better imo. Still not a genre I care too much about so it all depends if there are there any bosses in it? Im not to well known with the whole bloody Wizardy affair, so I dont know Wizardys history with boss fights?

[hidetoshidecide]

Mar 26, 2011 18:01:44 GMT -5 Ganelon said:

But why was Atlus insistent on releasing Class of Heroes and The Dark Spire afterward? As we know, one is a ripoff of questionable origins (based on Wizardry XTH) and the other was generally recognized as a mediocre game.

I suspect that the(perhaps unexpected) success of EO indicated that there was a market for them. EO reinvigorated my love for the genre, and I bought both Class of Heroes and The Dark Spire, so on an anecdotal level, it worked.

TDH is fucking fantastic, by the way, if you pretend that the game is over at the end of the fourth floor. It has wonderful graphics and sound and should be experienced by fans of the genre in spite of the flaws in its end game.

[Feynman]

Hidetoshi has it right. EO was far more successful than Atlus could have possibly predicted or hoped for. I imagine they were falling all over themselves trying to find other dungeon crawls to localize at that point. Of course, that EO is a more friendly, modern game than either Class of Heroes or the Dark Spire is a large reason for it's success, as Atlus quickly discovered when both of those titles ended up being minor blips at best.

The Dark Spire was a strange choice, though. I loved the game, but any game so relentlessly old school that it goes out of it's way to replicate even the flaws of it's 30-year old predecessors was doomed to fail. Atlus' poor decision was my benefit! I played that game through entirely in wireframe mode and loved every second of it.

[wyrdwad]

Mar 27, 2011 10:19:52 GMT -5 loempiavreter said:

Hmmm looks ok, ok I prefer Dungeon Crawlers and Roguelikes over your regular rpgs, the less storyline the better imo. Still not a genre I care too much about so it all depends if there are there any bosses in it? Im not to well known with the whole bloody Wizardy affair, so I dont know Wizardys history with boss fights?

Yeah, there are tons of bosses, so no worries there. (:

-Tom

[kobushi]

tl:dr - The new PS3 Wizardry game is OK, but not as good as Etrian Odyssey or Wizardry: Tales of the Forsaken Land.

I think it's stonking great that Xseed is localizing the PS3 Wizardry, but you need to know what you're in for.

The PS3 Wizardry is OLD SCHOOL. I'm not talking about it being a little harder than Mario 1-1. This is full-on, balls-to-the-wall, 1980s elder geek masochism.
- You will die. Many times. Suddenly and without warning. It won't even be your fault.
- Your stats will go down when you level up.
- You will grind and grind and grind until that one bastard enemy gives up that rare drop.
- Spells will always do less damage than you need them to.
- If you see an enemy that looks even vaguely like a ninja, RUN. RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN.

Games like Etrian Odyssey and Wizardry: Tales of the Forsaken Land were great because they modernized a lot of the mechanics without dumbing down the experience. (Note that the Japanese title of Forsaken Land is Busin: Wizardry Alternative. The developers got an official Wizardry license for the game, but they made so many changes to the core mechanics that they couldn't justify calling it a true Wizardry game anymore.)

In contrast, Acquire's Wizardry titles for the PS3 and DS are "classic" Wizardry, with all the old school (read: downright stupid) mechanics intact. Essentially, I mean that the game is more about luck than skill, which is frustrating. For that reason, I hesitate to recommend them.

My personal ranking of the best first-person dungeon crawlers of the past decade goes something like this:
1) Etrian Odyssey series
2) Busin and Busin 0 (aka Wizardry Tales of the Forsaken Land)
3) Students of Round <------------ Somebody localize this game!
4) Generation Xth trilogy
5) Kowloon Youma Gakuen Ki and Tokyo Monoharashi (these are hybrid games, though)
6) Wizardry Labyrinth of Lost Souls
7) Wizardry Xth and Xth 2
8) The Dark Spire
9) Other random crap

So in my opinion, there are better games out there.

Labyrinth of Lost Souls is not a terrible game though - far from it. The game is actually quite a bit easier than the original Wizardry trilogy. On non-maniac difficulty, you can save whenever you want. Bishops level up stupidly fast this time around, so they're extremely valuable. (Bishops can identify items and cast both mage and priest spells, so they're very handy, but historically they have always had steep experience requirements.)

The music is good, not nearly as good as Forsaken's hip jazz or Etrian's elegant chiptunes, but good. However, the music that plays on the XMB can blast you off your sofa if you're not careful (can you fix that, Xseed?)

The 2D artwork is absolutely gorgeous, on a level with Katsuya Terada's work in Tales of the Forsaken Land. Not having 3D rendered enemies also means that the game engine is lean and fast, almost as good as Team Muramasa's Xth games.

If you're a fan of dungeon crawlers and have the patience to endure outdated game mechanics, Labyrinth of Lost Souls is a nice game. But don't expect something better than Etrian Odyssey or Forsaken Land. For better or worse, Labyrinth of Lost Souls is yet another traditional Wizardry game.

[Feynman]

Mar 28, 2011 1:06:07 GMT -5 kobushi said:

The PS3 Wizardry is OLD SCHOOL. I'm not talking about it being a little harder than Mario 1-1. This is full-on, balls-to-the-wall, 1980s elder geek masochism.
- You will die. Many times. Suddenly and without warning. It won't even be your fault.
- Your stats will go down when you level up.
- You will grind and grind and grind until that one bastard enemy gives up that rare drop.
- Spells will always do less damage than you need them to.
- If you seen an enemy that looks even vaguely like a ninja, RUN. RUN RUN RUN RUN RUN.

Eeeeeeeeeexcellent.

(Admittedly, this isn't necessarily a good thing for the genre as a whole, and won't do much to encourage newcomers to play. On the other hand, the selfish me sees this as a sequel to some of my favorite childhood games materializing out of nowhere. It is the best thing.)