About nazism in videogames

[robertagilmour]

May 15, 2011 17:51:34 GMT -5 Joseph Joestar said:

May 14, 2011 16:04:59 GMT -5 @robertagilmour said:

The problem is that the Nazi soldiers are often seen as pure evil or just comical expendable lifeforms. They were mostly just people going along with something that spoke to their concerns and like a lot of people, didnt think that much about the bigger implications of the movement, because they have a certain security in the crowd and dont have to think too much about what they are doing because lots of other people are doing it.

I can think of about 6 million plus people that will call bullshit on you there, chief. Just because you're being bullied or peer-pressured into doing something horrible doesn't mean that you're innocent.

I certainly didnt say innocent, I meant they were all normal people. I also dont think most people had to be pressured or bullied into it, I think most went freely into it. But there were all variations of mindsets, including Nazis who ended up helping jews get out.
And that is the thing that keeps me thinking, about people I know and what they might be capable of. But I cant hate people I know for crimes they havent committed that I think they might be capable of in a situation like that.
Presenting these people unrealistically is in no-ones best interests. You just get a distorted picture of what that time was and people cant learn from history the way they should. There are lot of of people who get let off far too easy in history as well.

I have to say that I love the Metal Slug series and I really dont know how to feel about those stereotypes, but I think that maybe the whole thing is so mindless that there is not much negative attitudes one could pick up. Although you take part in a massaccre, it all seems so far away from getting a kick off of violence.

[Ike]

I'm really not sure what you're arguing here. Should there be a disclaimer on every video game about Nazis that they weren't all bad people? Does that really need to be said? Nobody is taking their history lessons from Call of Duty or Wolfenstein.

It seems to me like you are the one who can't seem to separate the German people of the early 20th century from the Nazi party. If someone is wearing the Nazi uniform, they've implicitly accepted the long series of ideals and values that go along with that uniform and are expected by both their compatriots and their enemies to uphold those ideals. Whether or not they were a personally a bad person, they're a member of the Nazi party by definition because they're wearing the uniform. If you're gonna get all uppity about how a virtual person is depicted in a fucking video game you are taking this shit way too seriously, even if the fake people are based on real people.

Yeah, Hitler put his pants one leg at a time, ate chocolate and sat down on a toilet to take a dump just like the rest of us, but that doesn't entitle him to immunity to caricature because he was a regular dude outside of authorizing the deaths of millions of people and personally crusading to have them exterminated.

It boggles my mind that this thread even exists. If there were a game where Jeffery Dahmer was depicted as a raving psychopath, would you be defending him too?

[Deleted]

I'm somewhat surprised I haven't closed this thread yet, but... I'll let it live for now. However, the two posts right above me could build up to a potentially nasty argument, and if it gets any uglier, I WILL close it.

This is the only warning I will give.

[robertagilmour]

It is a trend I'm a bit uncomfortable with but I didnt say I wanted any particular games changed. Just like with any stereotype, you have have to be careful and there are so many different ways things can be taken, I dont think there is an obvious right way. I think it was a reasonable thing to point out how problematic cartoon Nazis can be but I didnt write a manifesto for how they should be depicted. I was talking about the general depictions everywhere, not just in videogames.

Defending Dahmer is quite different from defending an enormous misguided population with varying amounts of evil and virtue within.

I'd also like to say before this thread closes, that I come here because I hate the aggression in most gaming forums and I make an effort toward staying as far away from mocking angry posts as I can. I dont want to make enemies here or anywhere else.

[Ike]

May 20, 2011 20:48:29 GMT -5 @robertagilmour said:

It is a trend I'm a bit uncomfortable with but I didnt say I wanted any particular games changed.

So what's the point of even discussing it? How should things be changed to make things "fair" to the Nazis?

Just like with any stereotype, you have have to be careful and there are so many different ways things can be taken, I dont think there is an obvious right way.

The wishy-washy attitude that you have to be careful about how you present someone or something robs any form of media (video games too) of its integrity. The artist (I use the term loosely here) has no control over how a product is interpreted once the information hits your brain. He can't.

Aside from that, I'm not sure you understand what a stereotype is. What games actually stereotype Nazis? I'm not even sure what a Nazi stereotype would be. A soldier? A Jew-hater? A German? These are all things that Nazis actually were. Certainly there existed Jewish sympathizers, but those people weren't Nazis. They were German citizens, members of resistance movements, and even if they were members of the military (I'm not 100% certain these people existed), they were exceptions to the rule, and rare ones if they existed at all. In any video game, movie, or whatever, it's the soldiers of a racist majority you're always fighting, not the quiet resistors. There's no "stereotyping" here and it's silly to be bothered by it.

I think it was a reasonable thing to point out how problematic cartoon Nazis can be but I didnt write a manifesto for how they should be depicted. I was talking about the general depictions everywhere, not just in videogames.

You say it's problematic, but you don't say how or why. I think it's because, as I said earlier, you make no effort to distinguish "Nazi" from "German person."

"Nazi" is short for "National Socialist," or the German language equivalent of that, and thus is a political party like a Republican or a Democrat. Implicit is the ideology of the Nazi Party, which is explicitly militaristic, racist, homophobic, and imperialist. To be a Nazi is by definition to subscribe to that ideology. Anybody who would call themselves a Nazi (or Neo-Nazi or any of the various permutations) is absolutely deserving of scorn and caricature. I can't think of any games that "stereotype" Nazis although I can think of quite a few that give them fictive qualities (like Wolfenstein.) That's not the same type of thing as a stereotype.

Give people some credit, here. Like I said, nobody's taking their history lessons from video games, and if they're the type of person to play Call of Duty and walk away from it thinking that Germans are universally Nazis, at that point we have a big problem. But stereotyping Nazis as bad people? I have no disagreement there.

Defending Dahmer is quite different from defending an enormous misguided population with varying amounts of evil and virtue within.

Replace "Dahmer" with Ku Klux Klan, then. To belong to the Klan, you have to subscribe to a certain ideology, a certain mindset, long before you actually get your ghost costume and torch. If you're a member, if you wear the ghost costume, you're implying that you subscribe to that ideology, outwardly saying that you are a racist, a white supremacist. It comes with the territory.

You could make the claim that joining the Klan is different from joining the Nazi German army because it's voluntary, and I'm sure many German soldiers were conscripted. However, that doesn't somehow negate the inherently racist position of the Nazi party as a whole. Again, I wouldn't call these people Nazis; they're German soldiers. If it makes you feel better, just pretend all the big bad Nazis you're shooting at in Call of Duty were voluntary enlistees. Problem solved. We're talking about fictional people here, after all, with no theory of mind to speak of, so it makes very little sense to complain about being "fair" to them when they don't technically exist.

Be careful when you say "misguided," though; Hitler was democratically elected and he didn't make it a secret that he wanted the Jews eradicated.

I'd also like to say before this thread closes, that I come here because I hate the aggression in most gaming forums and I make an effort toward staying as far away from mocking angry posts as I can. I dont want to make enemies here or anywhere else.

So don't come into a politically charged thread and wax quasi-philosophical with wishy-washy ideas and expect not to get called out on it? It's not hard!

[KeeperBvK]

I'm not gonna delve deep into this, but let me say that while Naziism in itself was and is a terrible thing, I'm definitely on Robert's side, by saying that like ALL groups of people ever in existence, also Nazis were not all the same and there might have been hundreds of reasons for joining, just like I know people in China that are members of the Communist party, if only because they gain advantages in their career from it, while still not realy agreeing with the politics and even telling their kid (or rarely kids) that they shouldn't enter, even if they want to.

And this is also quite problematic:

I'm not even sure what a Nazi stereotype would be. A soldier? A Jew-hater? A German? These are all things that Nazis actually were.

How was every Nazi a soldier if you yourself define Nazis as people of a certain political view? Was Goebbels a soldier? Was Mengele a soldier? Was every Nazi sitting in some office was a soldier? That's pretty baffling to say, for me.
And not all Nazis were Jew-haters. Even if the official word was to hate Jews, it still doesn't mean that everybody felt like doing so. It's like with every other political, religious, etc. movement: There's some official word to follow and then there's the own way and interpretation of every single follower. I consider myself Christian, yet I'm only going to Church once a year, so does that mean I'm not a Christian, as I'm doing as I'm told?
And every Nazi was a German? What about Austrians? And even some people from other EUropean countries assisted Nazi Germany and considered themselves Nazis, may it be Polish, French or whatever.

To make it short: I don't mind killing lots of ridiculously depicted Nazis in Wolfenstein and the likes and I had a hard time playing a strategy game called World in War on the iPhone where in the first mission you overrun Poland as Germany, BUT depicting ALL Nazis to be inherently bad people and basically the same, with the same reasoning behind their behaviour and overall just the same behaviour doesn't seem correct to me. What about for example someone who joined some party of the Nazi machinery only to be safer while planning some sort of opposition? You said that when somebody wore the uniform, he automatically was a Nazi and hence a bad person.

[Deleted]

The focus seems to have shifted away from games and onto more serious issues. I won't close the thread, but I have moved it over to off-topic. Carry on, but my warning still stands if things get too ad hominem. Deal?

[ReyVGM]

SPRINGTIME FOR HITLER AND GERMANY
LOOK OUT, HERE COMES THE MASTER RACE

[Ike]

May 21, 2011 0:15:48 GMT -5 KeeperBvK said:

I'm not gonna delve deep into this, but let me say that while Naziism in itself was and is a terrible thing, I'm definitely on Robert's side, by saying that like ALL groups of people ever in existence, also Nazis were not all the same and there might have been hundreds of reasons for joining, just like I know people in China that are members of the Communist party, if only because they gain advantages in their career from it, while still not realy agreeing with the politics and even telling their kid (or rarely kids) that they shouldn't enter, even if they want to.

Joining a party because of the perks makes you just as guilty for the actions of the other members of your party. What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to do to justify this?

"Gee, I really feel bad for those Jews, but joining the Party got me this swell house. Oh well, guess I better enjoy it, sorry guys! By the way kids, do as I say, not as I do, even if you get sweet rewards."

And this is also quite problematic:

I'm not even sure what a Nazi stereotype would be. A soldier? A Jew-hater? A German? These are all things that Nazis actually were.

How was every Nazi a soldier if you yourself define Nazis as people of a certain political view? Was Goebbels a soldier? Was Mengele a soldier? Was every Nazi sitting in some office was a soldier? That's pretty baffling to say, for me.

It baffles me that you somehow miss your own point even when it's being made for you. I didn't say all Nazis were soldiers; the vast majority of them were. I didn't say all Nazis were Jew-haters; the vast majority of them were.

Besides, militarism, racism and German imperialism are all explicit qualities of the Nazi party. When you put on the uniform, you're supporting that party.

And not all Nazis were Jew-haters. Even if the official word was to hate Jews, it still doesn't mean that everybody felt like doing so.

Refer above. Even if not every Nazi hated Jews, the vast, vast majority of them did. Putting on the uniform supports that idealism.

It's like with every other political, religious, etc. movement: There's some official word to follow and then there's the own way and interpretation of every single follower. I consider myself Christian, yet I'm only going to Church once a year, so does that mean I'm not a Christian, as I'm doing as I'm told?

Of course it doesn't, but just like putting on the Nazi uniform, wearing a cross necklace and declaring allegiance to the Christian religion comes with implicit assumptions about certain facets of your ideology, namely 1) believing in the existence of an omnipotent, benevolent God; 2) believing in the existence of a man named Jesus, his divinity, and his salvation; 3) accepting a moral code as laid out by the Bible. Taking your example from above about the Communists, this would be like me, as an atheist, joining the (say) Catholic religion for the perks (free wine and wafers) but raising my kids atheist because I have a moral objection to Christianity. That's downright silly.

And every Nazi was a German? What about Austrians? And even some people from other EUropean countries assisted Nazi Germany and considered themselves Nazis, may it be Polish, French or whatever.

Again, I didn't say that all Nazis were German. Besides, what's your point?

To make it short: I don't mind killing lots of ridiculously depicted Nazis in Wolfenstein

Thanks, this is the point I'm making. Congratulations: You have a functioning brain! You can distinguish caricature from reality! Welcome to the rest of the non-retarded human population!

and the likes and I had a hard time playing a strategy game called World in War on the iPhone where in the first mission you overrun Poland as Germany,

This however confuses me a bit since what you and Robert seem to be arguing for is a more historical, more accurate representation of Nazis on the human level, but when you're playing a game that reenacts something that actually, objectively happened ... that bothers you??

BUT depicting ALL Nazis to be inherently bad people and basically the same, with the same reasoning behind their behaviour and overall just the same behaviour doesn't seem correct to me.

Obviously they all didn't have the same motivations behind joining the party, the army, or whatever. It would be silly to make that claim. However, you can make a few tacit (and mostly value-related) assumptions about a person's motivations when they're wearing a Nazi uniform, the same way I can make a few tacit (again, value-related) assumptions about your own character when you say you're Christian. If a person identifying themselves as a Nazi asked you to hang out and get a beer, would you do it, on the off chance that maybe he's not a Jew hater or a white supremacist? If you say yes, I have some grave concerns about the people you'd befriend.

What about for example someone who joined some party of the Nazi machinery only to be safer while planning some sort of opposition? You said that when somebody wore the uniform, he automatically was a Nazi and hence a bad person.

Let's say I'm a Nazi soldier working in a concentration camp. Let's say I'm one of these 'good guy' undercover operatives. If I gas a room of people I've starved to near-death, do my intentions to overthrow Hitler absolve me of that responsibility? Think really hard about what you're implying with this, because it painfully conflicts with what I understand to be a Christian value. If you were a German in the 30's assisting the Nazis just to keep your nose clean, it doesn't matter what your intentions are, you are still morally responsible for your actions.

[bioniccommando83]

I think part of the appeal for Nazi's as being more than acceptable targets to shoot, explode, and villainize in gaming (and other media) is not only the perversity of their goals, but the methodical, planned, and organized way in which it was done. Communism in the 1900s probably killed more people through a combination of paranoia and neglect than any outright intentional plan (Soviet farm collectivism starving millions, Mao's Great Leap Forward starving about 30 million- but as anyone who played either Strider or the NES release of Super Dodgeball knows- Communism can and should be beaten with either a massive ninja sword or superior dodgeball skills), but the time frame and energy the Nazi regime put forward made it truly horrific.

When waging war itself, the Nazis were somewhat apt to follow the Hague Convention and rules of warfare, particularly when set against Axis Japan and some of its practices (Unit 731, the siege and scorched earth policy against China). In terms of the Holocaust and the intended Hunger Plan set to be waged against the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, it was very planned and intentional. Prior the Holocaust, Germany set out to expand its foodstock in the Ukraine at the expense of condemning its nationals to starve (though moderately effective, the failure of Operation Barbarosa failed this). The Holocaust was in turn a deliberate synthesis of German anti-semitism (Coupled with collaborative anti-semitism in conquered countries- France, Romania, Poland), as well as an intent to winnow the population for reasons of ensuring slave labor, a decreasing population for limited foodstock, as well as the well known Aryian intent of racial purity. I believe the phrase on the "banality of evil" at the Eichmann trial sums up the worst of it- methodical, lawful evil, and intentional genocide, objective condemnation of human life and in turn, something that I can believe be weighed as objectively evil under almost all moral mores. Regardless of whatever else happened, that objective evil remains Nazism's lasting legacy.

The Nazi symbols probably are edited for release in Europe and because while it's okay to have them as targets, it still strikes a raw nerve for too many people I would assume for general release elsewhere. Playing as them as well would be seen as glorifying a regime best known by the extremes above- a Reich set for 1,000 years of shame and condemnation with another 938 years to go.

In conclusion, I'd like to at least present two videos that do if nothing else make a compelling point for putting Nazis into video games as cannon fodder:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6X9Yj5ct88

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtjOzkJkJc8

[robertagilmour]

You make good points Ike, and I'll admit to being wishy-washy but I'd rather be that than being overly certain (not that I'm accusing you of that). I'd also rather raise questions even if they are a bit obvious, because they still bother me and I'd like to know what you all think.

I'm getting increasingly uneasy about any videogame violence whether it be Mario, Pacman, Metal Slug or any FPS game. The best example I can think of is the first Medal of Honor game when the Nazis had goofy voices. I understand that the game was playing around with propaganda in a humorous way but it still creeps me out a bit that the horror of the situation is being softened. It creeps me out when think that the depiction of mass killing is softened so you dont think of it as killing. I'd personally like a mode in Mario that allows you to hear ghastly screams of your victims.
I've never agreed with people who were more offended by disturbing thought provoking violence than by cartoon escapist violence.
I dont know how to feel about myself that I dont mind killing monsters as much as humans, I liked it how in Castlevania the owners of owls and dogs mourn the loss of their pets. Maybe those knights have lived with those owls for centuries before you came and killed it.

I'm also uneasy about watching slapstick violent cartoons and martial arts films when you are encouraged to hate the villain and enjoy watching their defeat. Basically anything that gives you permission to enjoy violence without thinking about it too much.

I've never believed in ridicule as a truly 100% positive thing, no matter how bad the people being ridiculed. I know how it can come as a comfort, but you can have too much of that comfort and you stop thinking about it properly. You might have guessed by this, I'm also uneasy about enjoying the mocking of people, so watching South Park is more difficult than it used to be. Mocking and ridicule lets you sit in the comfy seat and you are less likely to consider the full complexity of what is being mocked. In comedy there is no distinct obvious line between what is mocked because the comedian truly hates it and what is mocked just for the fun of being silly, you are often left wondering how they really feel about what they are making fun of, how the audience feels: validated/confirmed/solidified in their dislike or still questioning and forming an opinion.
Right now I feel this type of comedy (although I like a lot of comedians who do it) makes people too at ease about hatred. Makes people enjoy throwing shit at each other too much rather than trying to understand the people who oppose you and working something out. It makes politics a game of who can make the biggest fool out of the other instead of a mutual constructive effort.
When I feel like responding to someone I politically oppose, I often feel like ridiculing them perhaps because of the escapist comedy I have enjoyed, but then I think about what more could be gained on both sides by being more reasonable.
In the case of Nazis, although I think it is terrible, I believe I am more likely to change the mind of a Nazi if I treat them sympathetically rather than self-indulgently bludgeoning them with insults to make myself feel better. Mocking establishes you as someone not to trust, someone who doesent care about you and then they decide not to take you seriously, creates a distance, people become reluctant to speak on rational terms with each other, we go into our own little self-satisfied worlds without real constructive challenges to face. I think that the most positive path is usually the longest, slowest one that takes the most discipline.

I recently read someone talking about the Indiana Jones films in a book written back in the 80s and it surprised me how horrified they were by them, they felt the escapist violence was worryingly decadent and a lot more objectionable than the often sadisitic gothic books he was praising in the rest of the book.

I think it is worth considering that some of the things that you enjoy (usually unquestioningly) everyday could be making you a less healthy person. And as someone who likes a lot of extreme entertainment, I face unpleasant thoughts that something I love so much might be a bad thing that the world might be better without. I'm usually left at a wishy-washy dead end where I am left not knowing what to think. There are some very great minds who felt the same way, you are stuck on the same questions for decades and barely get any further.

I stand 99% firm against censorship, but I'm very much in favor of regulating yourself exhaustively, even if you have to face painful choices. I wouldnt harshly judge people who make games with lots of enjoyable violence, but I dont think I could do it myself. Even if I came to an extreme conclusion, I would not villainize the people who believed the opposite.

[Deleted]

May 21, 2011 10:33:06 GMT -5 @robertagilmour said:

I'd personally like a mode in Mario that allows you to hear ghastly screams of your victims.

This is a joke, right. I honestly can't tell when you're being serious in this thread anymore.

[Warchief Onyx]

Tetris is one of the most violent and sadistic video games ever created. It's all about forcing those poor blocks into a cramped chamber, forcing them to line up, and then vaporizing them into nothingness. It's genocide I tells ya!

[robertagilmour]

May 21, 2011 11:21:01 GMT -5 @jasonx said:

May 21, 2011 10:33:06 GMT -5 @robertagilmour said:

I'd personally like a mode in Mario that allows you to hear ghastly screams of your victims.

This is a joke, right. I honestly can't tell when you're being serious in this thread anymore.

That was indeed a joke, but I would actually like to see it in a hacked version as an experiment, but it would probably be more funny than anything else. The screams of the old man in Bioshock makes me laugh every time and there is a perverse thrill in that.

[robertagilmour]

My argument in favour of enjoying violence is that it might make you consider these things more fully than if you had avoided them. You could outlaw some things and there would be positive results, but the cost might be too great even if it did save lives.

I am open to massive endorsements of these type of games, my position is not solidified.

I cant hear the word "genocide" without thinking of Sagat. Whenever some horrible thing about genocide is in the news I think "TIGER GENOCIDE!!!"