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Post by wyrdwad on Jun 28, 2011 22:03:08 GMT -5
They may have in the past, I'm not sure... but they certainly don't feel that way anymore. Sony LOVES small developers and publishers these days, and goes out of their way to accommodate us. Most of the games we've published in recent memory have been on Sony platforms (most notably the PSP), and while there are MANY reasons for this, the big one is that SONY MAKES IT SO INCREDIBLY EASY AND HASSLE-FREE.
Also, don't believe what you've heard about Sony systems being obtuse to develop for. As I understand it, programming for both the PSP and Vita is virtually identical to programming for the PC, and some have said the same is true for the PS3 (though if you're going for full-on high-polygon 3D, it apparently starts to get a bit more complicated). That's why Falcom switched to PSP after years of PC-only development -- they've even gone on record as saying that the PSP was an appealing system for them because of how easy it was to develop for.
Really, I think the ONLY reason the PS3 failed as badly as it did upon its initial launch was its price point. Everyone seemed to agree, the system was amazing... but it was perhaps a bit too far ahead of its time, since the technology contained within it was far from affordable. That's changed, however, and the PS3 has now (rightfully) become more accepted and desired among gamers due to its significantly more affordable price point.
That's not really arrogance, though... just a bad business decision that was later righted.
And yes, I *do* see things in a very specific way... but as you may have noticed, I also have fairly thorough reasons as to WHY I see them that way. So if you're going to claim that my opinions are somehow faulty... you really should back that up with actual reasoning. I believe I've been debating my points very well thus far, and without resorting to name-calling or any disrespectful language whatsoever -- and I see no reason why you can't do the same.
-Tom
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2011 22:35:18 GMT -5
Sony has a long, storied history of not giving a shit about smaller developers, too, but I suppose that's not entirely unique to their situation. They've done some bad shit when it came to 2d games and such, but they were nowhere near the level of bullshit that Nintendo pulled on third parties during their reign in the 80s. At the risk of offending someone, it was slightly less friendly for third-party developers back then than if the Taliban were running the show. That, and it probably would have been cheaper (for the developers, and for the consumers) in that case as well. If anyone ever deserved comeuppance, it was Nintendo. X-pert, I guess I should have worded things better...people do bitch about Nintendo and call them on all of the stupid, gimmicky shit they do. But you rarely ever hear anyone call them arrogant, which is pretty fucking funny to me because they've always been that way and continue to be that way to this day. I'm not saying that Sony isn't full of their share of shit (or Microsoft for that matter), but Nintendo is and definitely was just as bad in their own way. I mean, Sony has yet to be found guilty of violating antitrust laws as far as I know, so they at least have that leg up on Nintendo when it comes to dealing with other companies. |
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Post by X-pert74 on Jun 28, 2011 22:56:18 GMT -5
X-pert, I guess I should have worded things better...people do bitch about Nintendo and call them on all of the stupid, gimmicky shit they do. But you rarely ever hear anyone call them arrogant, which is pretty fucking funny to me because they've always been that way and continue to be that way to this day. I'm not saying that Sony isn't full of their share of shit (or Microsoft for that matter), but Nintendo is and definitely was just as bad in their own way. I mean, Sony has yet to be found guilty of violating antitrust laws as far as I know, so they at least have that leg up on Nintendo when it comes to dealing with other companies. Yeah, I see what you mean. While I don't think of Nintendo as the poster child for arrogance, I definitely think the company comes across that way at times. I don't think Miyamoto in particular is arrogant, but some of the things Reggie says do come off that way. In some ways (well, in a lot of ways) it's like Nintendo is blind to almost everything that's out there. They just go about doing their own thing, and when other people are dissatisfied with it they seem to be taken by surprise that others wouldn't approve. I don't think the way the gaming media treats Nintendo is all that helpful either though. It annoys me when Nintendo claims that they're going to support the "hardcore" by bringing out new Mario/Zelda/Metroid/every other Nintendo series you've seen a million times before, but it's kind of hard to blame them when most people in the gaming press only seem to care about having more Mario/Zelda/Metroid and don't give a shit about anything else from them. It's especially aggravating when new titles in those series have just come out, and then the gaming press starts asking Nintendo when new sequels to those series will come out, when what they could be asking instead is when Nintendo will make brand new IPs, or perhaps bring some of their already-created Japan-only games to other regions. But most of them just focus on Nintendo's already-established IPs, which I don't think makes for a healthy focus from either side. |
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Post by Ganelon on Jun 28, 2011 23:22:40 GMT -5
They may have in the past, I'm not sure... but they certainly don't feel that way anymore. Sony LOVES small developers and publishers these days, and goes out of their way to accommodate us. Most of the games we've published in recent memory have been on Sony platforms (most notably the PSP), and while there are MANY reasons for this, the big one is that SONY MAKES IT SO INCREDIBLY EASY AND HASSLE-FREE. That may be the case in the handheld and online markets but have they really demonstrated they're willing to allow niche games on their flagship consoles? A quick look to Japan shows that smaller developers interested in retail releases have shunned the PS3 for the 360, a console with several times less market share over there. The 2D shooter market in particular belongs on the 360 this generation. It's not clear whether this is due to Sony not wanting the PS3 to look bad or if it's due to Microsoft courting these small publishers to grab a foothold in Japan, but either way, however support Sony may be, it's outweighed by what MS is offering. I think it'll be interesting to see what your experiences will be if/when you get your first PS3 game out the door—provided it's not after the PS4's announcement. Maybe SCEA has learned from its mistakes and maybe its old policies won't show up until the right conditions. After all, it wasn't that long ago that SCEA rejected Sakura Wars 1+2 on the PSP... That said, I agree with you that SCE seems to be friendlier now than it's ever been. I imagine the reason they don't get as much credit as they should for its commendable region-free policy is because there aren't many attractive JP-only games for non-mecha, non-Musou fans. |
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Post by muteKi on Jun 29, 2011 0:24:43 GMT -5
After all, it wasn't that long ago that SCEA rejected Sakura Wars 1+2 on the PSP... *twitch* Damn, I didn't even know about this. Wish they'd just translate/update the PC ports of all 4 games and put them on GOG or something. |
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Post by wyrdwad on Jun 29, 2011 1:21:07 GMT -5
We already have, actually. Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls. An extremely old-school, extremely niche title.
And Sony was VERY supportive of the release, even going so far as to give top billing to a PlayStation Blog entry we wrote about it, and even providing us with some free advertising via their Twitter.
Regarding niche titles going to the 360 in Japan, I think a lot of that stems from Microsoft paying developers for exclusivity around the time the console first came out. It was an absolutely ingenious maneuver on their part, as it essentially established the console as a haven for shooting game fans by featuring several high-profile titles early on.
Say what anyone will about Microsoft, they know how to run a business effectively.
-Tom
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Post by kitten on Jun 29, 2011 3:24:31 GMT -5
Unless it's translated into English and I'm given a free copy, there's almost no way on Earth this is possibly going to happen. I don't see anything at all even remotely interesting about this game, and the art design is that of which I despise about anime, today. It doesn't help it falls into the stupid trope of every character needing to be a high schooler. It also has an evil teddy bear that looks completely asinine (I don't understand what it is with Japan these days and evil things that look borderline cute/innocent) and a couple token fetish characters like a maid.
This is my point. Some. A decreasingly smaller and more insular some. I clearly don't speak for the entire gaming world, but when even a site like Hardcore Gaming 101 hasn't heard of most of the titles you're listing, I think it's pretty safe to say that Japan is in serious decline.
The portion of the gaming world I do speak for is a rapidly growing majority. You can argue that Japan is still as talented at making games, but don't you think the amount of people that disagree with you is some sort of indication you might just have niche taste? Most big name Japanese companies are losing a lot of money, and big names in Japan (like Keiji Inafune!) have admitted that Japanese game design is shit. Square Enix even had to issue a formal apology to FFXIV players for the game being bad.
Some of Japan is innovative, still! It's just that most of it isn't. While some of these games you linked may have innovative premises or ideas, few of them seem to do anything to actually innovate as to how you play video games. They're making small strides in tired genres like dungeon crawlers, visual novels and BEU/hack n' slash. Japan's bigger names are dying because they just can't sustain interest in their products and the only ones that are really thriving are the odd companies like From Software that actually still make something amazing and people who make these niche games, usually on handhelds and at a tightened budget.
Even if you were to somehow get me to agree that these games innovating how games play, I strongly doubt you'd get me to agree more than a fractional handful of them are actually interesting enough to play, and that seems to be how the very vast majority of gamers feel about it. I really hate pulling "more people think this way, so I win," but the market has been overwhelmingly suggesting this huge decline in interest and quality.
I've already argued reasons why I find most modern Japanese games uninteresting, so it's really down to "most other people think this way, too," as a bottom line. Given the subjective nature of entertainment's quality, nothing I can say will "prove" whether or not Japan's on a decline, but it's widely considered as being on a massive one, and your argument has done nothing to convince me otherwise. I would, in fact, sincerely argue that the fact you believe these games you listed are evidence that Japan is still doing well has only made me feel more conviction toward my belief that Japan has seriously just stopped knowing how to make good video games.
As for the Sony defense, I'm literally at a loss for words as to how you could defend that company after all the things they've done. Maybe if I worked with them and they made my job easier, it would be easier for me to neglect how awful they are to everyone else, and how awful their history is. Regarding what Jason X said, you really have tunnel vision on the issue. Also, I hate Nintendo, too, so going "Nintendo has also done awful things" does nothing to make me view Sony any lighter.
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Post by muteKi on Jun 29, 2011 3:40:22 GMT -5
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Post by wyrdwad on Jun 29, 2011 3:47:31 GMT -5
I guess I can't argue with this, but I can at least ask one question: why do they HAVE to? I like games the way they are. Or the way they WERE, anyway. And a lot of Japanese developers seem to feel the same way -- as I put it when describing Falcom at one point, "they don't reinvent the wheel, they just make it rounder." Japanese developers aren't trying to reinvent gaming, they're just trying to take the genres and game design concepts that already exist, and make them better. And I'm really afraid that because so many people are waving the "innovation" flag these days, that's going to be a dying trend soon... and I think the day that old-school, classic-styled games go the way of the dinosaur will be the day that I stop playing video games. In short... I guess ultimately, I like the classics, and I like seeing the classics remain alive. I respect games that innovate within established parameters, rather than trying to REWRITE those parameters... and I just wish more people would support such efforts, as that really is an integral part of the video gaming landscape, whether or not people want to admit it. In many ways, getting into a cycle of "you must innovate completely or we won't buy your games" is just as much a stagnation as anything else. Plus, I really don't see western games innovating that much either, TBH. If anything, I see more interesting risks (true innovations within established genres) being taken by Japanese developers... who then proceed to make little or no money off of them.  In the west, though, I just keep seeing Call of Duty clones and World of Warcraft clones, and they just... keep making money. Gamers suck nowadays. (: I guess it also helps that I *love* anime style, I *love* moe archetypes, and I *love* Japanese culture... so of course, I'm going to be drawn to games that feature such things. (: Every "thing they've done" is something I've been able to defend in great detail, however (aside from the Goemon PS2 thing, the removal of Linux support, and the subsequent Geohot persecution thing, anyway, but those alone aren't enough to outweigh all the GOOD things they've done). No one has yet to explain to me exactly WHY or HOW they've been "awful" to everyone else, especially this console generation (Linux and Geohot notwithstanding). I think the issue may be that you pretty much HAVE to look at Sony in comparison with Nintendo and Microsoft, since -- for all intents and purposes -- it's a three-party system in the world of video game politics these days, and all three companies are interested in the bottom line first and foremost. Which is totally understandable, given that they ARE businesses. The issue really comes down to the question, is any one of those three notably more evil than the other two? And I'd say the answer is probably, no. (Oh, and on the subject of Dangan Ronpa, what do you actually know about the GAMEPLAY? Because that's where the game truly innovates. It's a murder mystery/courtroom/relationship game. You could say, "oh, it's just Phoenix Wright meets Persona," but once you actually play it, it's clear that -- while those games may have INSPIRED it -- it's very much its own thing, playing much UNlike any other video game ever made.) -Tom |
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Post by wyrdwad on Jun 29, 2011 4:07:23 GMT -5
Actually, Kitten... if I may...
Are there any big businesses you actually like? Like, ones that you stand behind, and consider to be honorable and respectable? Or are you just pretty much anti-big business in general? Because I think that may be the crux of the matter here.
Although I avoid politics like the plague, I'm fairly conservative when it comes to economics, and feel that businesses -- especially large ones -- should be granted a bit of leeway, seeing as how they provide us with necessary or highly desired services. I'm not of the mindset (and will never BE of the mindset) that we, as customers, are "always right" -- instead, I believe that the services we receive from businesses are a privilege we're buying, NOT a right to which we're entitled.
Looking at it from that standpoint, Sony runs a very honorable business. They're fairly transparent about what happens behind closed doors, they reach out to smaller businesses with extreme generosity, and most importantly of all, they grant customers little perks that we often take for granted, but which we really shouldn't expect to receive (like the PS3, PSP and Vita being region-free).
From the "customer is always right" standpoint, I can (KINDA) see why someone would consider Sony evil/awful... but I've worked in customer service before, and believe me, the customer is usually NOT right. Whenever big business and little Joe American are at odds, my natural tendency is to side with big business, because frankly, they might as well be the underdog these days -- our entire legal system favors little Joe American, often at great expense to big business... but you have to consider the fact that behind big business are a lot of workers, and the more Joe American tries to squeeze them for all they're worth, the more workers there will be who suffer because of it, with job cuts and ultra-stringent policies and what-not.
Sony's firing (was it a firing?) of their head of network security is a good example, as from the sounds of it, Sony's network security was pretty much by the book, and the reaction time for notifying customers of the breach was completely in line with traditional Japanese business practices. To me, it's clear that the network security head was fired as a token gesture to appease customers, despite the fact that he/she likely performed his/her duties very well for many years. So do I feel bad for the people who MIGHT have had their credit card info compromised (but probably didn't)? No, I feel bad for the guy who got fired from his job because they all decided to complain that his entirely by-the-book actions were in some way faulty. Dude's probably going to have a tough time finding another job, and all because some hacker group had a vendetta against Sony.
So I'm just very curious to know if there are ANY big businesses you approve of... and if not, then I can totally understand your point of view, even if I wholeheartedly disagree with it.
-Tom
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Post by kitten on Jun 29, 2011 4:25:42 GMT -5
I guess I can't argue with this, but I can at least ask one question: why do they HAVE to? I'd prefer a lot of Japanese game design stay the same, but I think it's very obvious that's not enough to keep it alive, as most of the big names in Japan have realized (unfortunately, in realizing so, they seem to spend all their money poorly imitating western games, rather than trying to be one step ahead of them). Some of my favorite genres are defined by classic Japanese titles, like Contra, Gradius, Mega Man and countless others. Out of my top 10 favorite games, only one is Western, and 3 of the Eastern titles were developed in the last 3 years. Like I said, there are still some things I love about modern Japanese titles, and I still very much love the classics. However, Japan only making the odd game I love here and there is not indicative of how they've been doing on the whole, which is embarrassingly poorly. Too bad they're doing an awful job! Games you used as examples like El Shaddai and Gravity Daze both have clearly rudimentary, dated, poor combat that fails to be on-par with western juggernauts like the God of War series. Shmups have taken a huge nose-dive in quality from their halcyon days (and become infected with smut), and westerners have really taken over in making better platformers and action games. If they were just making old genres better, I'd sure love to see all the great new run 'n guns, action-platformers and platformers coming out of Japan - but they don't exist. Many revivals of classic titles are being handed to Western developers, too, and in some cases, like Bionic Commando Rearmed, they're doing better than the Japanese themselves could even do anymore. Westerners are not just outdoing the Japanese in genres they defined, they're outdoing them even in their very own series. Westerners seem more interested in preserving classics than the Japanese do, honestly. |
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Post by kitten on Jun 29, 2011 4:29:41 GMT -5
Are there any big businesses you actually like? I used to like both Capcom and Konami a very great deal. Aside from that, no, not really. I enjoy some services and products from big companies a very great deal, though! |
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Post by personman on Jun 29, 2011 5:25:33 GMT -5
Man that website makes me depressed. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2011 6:31:07 GMT -5
I think this is also part of it. You're taking this personally. Too seriously, as well. This isn't a debate over abortion, it's people talking about videogames. |
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Post by Ryu the Grappler on Jun 29, 2011 10:38:17 GMT -5
Do you take those poseurs from Cracked seriously? |
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In the west, though, I just keep seeing Call of Duty clones and World of Warcraft clones, and they just... keep making money.
