It's the OoT3D thread!

[Deleted]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm really insulted by the way game companies keep trying to shove 3D technology down our throats. I didn't ask for it, I don't want it, I don't find it entertaining, and I sure as shit don't want to buy another tv for it. The 3DS is all of that in a handheld.

[derboo]

Well, then don't buy a 3DS? Maybe?

[PooshhMao]

I'm guessing you felt that VHS tapes were perfectly sufficient when they introduced DVD too?

[Deleted]

Jul 6, 2011 6:57:51 GMT -5 PooshhMao said:

I'm guessing you felt that VHS tapes were perfectly sufficient when they introduced DVD too?

That seems like a rather weak argument to me. The 3DS certainly offers a higher level of fidelity than the DS or GBA, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the 3D gimmick applied to the games. 3D gaming is the Super Scope of the modern generation.

Also, in response to derboo, I'm not in any rush to get a 3DS. I'm sure I'll pick one up eventually, but only after it has enough games to justify the purchase. As it stands, it's just a new system with a gimmick that doesn't really appeal to me. Feel free to love it if you want, it just does nothing for me, personally.

[Ike]

Jul 6, 2011 6:57:51 GMT -5 PooshhMao said:

I'm guessing you felt that VHS tapes were perfectly sufficient when they introduced DVD too?

Are you serious?

Jul 6, 2011 4:50:33 GMT -5 PooshhMao said:

I honestly do not get the hate the 3DS is receiving on these boards. The system has been out for a little over three months and it's already got a great library. Granted, the good stuff are either ports or new entries in established franchises, but since I haven't played the original, it's like a totally new game to me.

I look at the 3DS library every time I go to GameStop and I have to emphatically disagree with you that it has a 'great library.' It's got an incredibly tiny library for having been out three months, and most of the titles that were advertised for the thing that were advertised and motivating people to buy it are not out yet. Unless you consider Nintendogs + Cats or Pilotwings to be worth the $300 price tag. I suppose it's a matter of taste at the bottom line, but come on. The game's major launch release was fucking Super Street Fighter 4. A game that had already been released twice before in a superior format and just got yet another release a few days ago.

Everything about the system screams "rushed." The system is not significantly different from my DS Lite. Its main advantages are the slider pad (which is a dubious gain at best) and DSiWare. My PSP had both of those capabilities 5 years ago (replacing DSiWare with PSN access, of course.)

I remember everybody screaming about how the system is going to have GAMECUBE LEVEL GRAPHICS... so the fuck what? We've got the technology level of a 10 year old console on a handheld. That would be fantastic but for the fact that Nintendo has been doing that with all of their handhelds. The Gameboy Color had 8-bit graphics on par with the NES, a system that had come out 10 years prior. The GBA has approximately Super Nintendo level graphics, matching their console released 10 years earlier. Compare that to the Vita, which is offering up sub-PS3 graphics, which by any measure is leaps and bounds ahead of what Nintendo's offering us. The Vita's launch is a few months away yet and I may be proven wrong but I think Nintendo really fears this thing. I often wonder how different Nintendo's approach would be now if not for the PSN hack putting such a massive dent in Sony's customer base; their concern might be a little more obvious.

And from what I can see on YouTube, I think the graphics upgrade falls somewhere between 'significant' and 'dramatic'. Apart from a few NPC models, there is little about the game which made me go 'hmm, that could have been better'. Seriously.

Nintendo does have one thing going for them with their triple-A titles and that's consistency. Even games with mediocre graphics can look great when things are put into a proper context.

Compare Deadly Premonition and Silent Hill Homecoming(SH5.) Deadly Premonition's graphics are, by most peoples' reckoning, pretty fucking bad for a game released in 2010. But in actually playing the game, the graphics look awesome to me, because they're so consistent and so detailed. Contrast this with another horror game, SH5, which was released several years earlier and with a much more robust graphics engine, but very inconsistent. The main character's face alone carries more detail than anything else in the game, which makes for very awkward cutscenes where a sometimes startlingly realistic looking man is talking to his own mother, who appears to have been carved out of soap.

I bring this up because OoT3D is consistent. It doesn't look bad, but it doesn't quite match the 'organic' feeling that OoT, somehow, managed to achieve on the N64. The textures look better and there's definitely a polycount bump, but it's like they forgot took the original animations and simply stuck them whole hog onto the new models and forgot to animate the rest of their additions. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they did this.

And what, Link controls stiffly. What the fuck, are you high? The swordplay and evasive manoeuvers you can do is brilliant. Nothing less. Sometimes the context-sensitive action button can cause a little confusion, but it's never in a time critical or stressful situation.

You're confused. Link controls exactly the same as he did in the N64. He moves stiffly, compared to the N64 version(s) of him. His animations are off. If you've played the original you can see it - it's obvious to everyone who has played the original. You can write it off all you want that "if you haven't played the original" that the game is great. I'm not saying it's not great. It's Ocarina of Fucking Time. But that's just it. It's a game that came out 13 years ago. Treating as if it's new simply because you didn't take the opportunity to play it in over a decade is silly. The game is not even targeted at new players, it's a clear play at nostalgia on Nintendo's part. If only they had made the box gold.

He climbs ladders too slowly?

This was a problem in the original. Step pause step pause step pause step pause.

Also, please stop bitching about the 3D.

No.

I happen to love 3D myself. It's the next logical step up from polygon graphics and you know it.

Great, go on loving it. I don't. I disagree that it's the next 'logical' step up. People behave as if there's a chain of predetermined chain of progression when it comes to games technology, as if because one company does something the rest will follow suit out of necessity instead of just aping on an established concept.

If 3D were the next logical step up from polygon graphics, the Virtual Boy (which I argue does 3D better than the 3DS ever will) would not have been a spectacular failure. We've had 3D movies since the fucking 50s and yet they only recently seem to be coming into vogue, and even then there's a lot of ambiguity about whether or not it's a meaningful contribution to film. I would argue that it's a detriment more than anything. Truly immersive movies rely on their plots, their acting, and their writing to be immersive, not their visuals. Then you end up with shit like Avatar, where James Cameron thinks he can get away with rehashing Dances with Wolves with a space alien theme because his movie is pretty. I can't fathom that this is what any sane person would want out of their games.

It looks terrific and it's immersive. If you don't like it, turn it off, and get free anti-aliasing as a consolation prize. But it's your loss.

I could also just play the game on my N64 for a fraction of the price of a 3DS and a copy of OOT3D and I get to play it on my TV with surround sound. You can score an N64 and a copy of OoT for under $50 dollars. I know this because I used to sell this exact package every day for 2 years for $37.44, tax included. You even have enough left over to get Majora's Mask, too. Or if you want to get really fancy get the Gamecube collections. Then you can play them in progressive scan on your Wii. wooooooah

It adds to the gameplay. I find myself being that bit more careful when jumping chasms, not to mention it makes judging distances easier. It 'triggers' my fear of heights, and if a game manages to do that, you know it's doing something right.

It doesn't add to the gameplay. It can't. Nintendo has emphatically repeated how faithful the 3D version is going to be to the N64 version, a pixel-perfect port of the original, which if you'll remember had no 3D option. You've got it backwards. The 3D adds nothing to the gameplay; the gameplay adds to the 3D.

[X-pert74]

Personally I can think of a few reasons why I would want a 3DS eventually, but the system does have a lot of issues with it, like the regional lockout (fucking hate it), the battery life (kind of a pain), and for the moment at least, a rather meager library (the only must-have game for me that is already out is Ghost Recon: Shadow Wars, although if Mega Man Legends 3 comes out and the new Contra and Paper Mario games turn out to be good, that'll be enough for me to get one). An Ocarina of Time port/remake doesn't fit into that. I guess if someone has never played the game before that would be more incentive to get it, but I just don't agree with the idea that a new version of an old game should be what convinces one to obtain that platform. If this were an all-new Zelda game I could understand, but it's not. So I don't feel compelled to get a new system just for it.

[Karuvitomsk]

I'm agreeing with you mostly, Ike, just wanted to say a few things:

Jul 6, 2011 9:32:14 GMT -5 Ike said:

I remember everybody screaming about how the system is going to have GAMECUBE LEVEL GRAPHICS... so the fuck what? We've got the technology level of a 10 year old console on a handheld.

The key words here are "on a handheld". These aren't mind-blowing graphics by any means but we've got to remember that we're carrying gamecube/wii-esque experiences in our pocket. I'd say that's worth a little recognition. Of course the Vita's visuals are at a sub-PS3 level, and that's more significant in some ways, but the comparisons ultimately will have to be based on software.

..it's like they forgot took the original animations and simply stuck them whole hog onto the new models and forgot to animate the rest of their additions. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they did this.

They actually did redo a large number of the animations, but I agree with the rest of this.

You're confused. Link controls exactly the same as he did in the N64. He moves stiffly, compared to the N64 version(s) of him.

He seemed to move pretty smoothly to me, but I didn't play the original all the way through, either.

You've got it backwards. The 3D adds nothing to the gameplay; the gameplay adds to the 3D.

I'm not sure how I feel either way. Is it an innovation? Not really, no, you're right. But when you're playing with it it adds this.. unnameable "something" to it. It's not something I can argue for, but it adds to my experience. The 3D's being marketed as a sort of gimmick but I don't see it as one in the same way as waggle was a gimmick.

[PooshhMao]

Jul 6, 2011 9:32:14 GMT -5 Ike said:

Great, go on loving it. I don't. I disagree that it's the next 'logical' step up. People behave as if there's a chain of predetermined chain of progression when it comes to games technology, as if because one company does something the rest will follow suit out of necessity instead of just aping on an established concept.

People behave that way because, well, there is. The first step up was color (A2600) Then came bitmap graphics (8bit generation). Then parallax background scrolling (16bit). Then there were polygons. Now there's polygons in stereoscopic 3D.

Jul 6, 2011 9:32:14 GMT -5 Ike said:

If 3D were the next logical step up from polygon graphics, the Virtual Boy (which I argue does 3D better than the 3DS ever will) would not have been a spectacular failure. We've had 3D movies since the fucking 50s and yet they only recently seem to be coming into vogue, and even then there's a lot of ambiguity about whether or not it's a meaningful contribution to film. I would argue that it's a detriment more than anything. Truly immersive movies rely on their plots, their acting, and their writing to be immersive, not their visuals. Then you end up with shit like Avatar, where James Cameron thinks he can get away with rehashing Dances with Wolves with a space alien theme because his movie is pretty. I can't fathom that this is what any sane person would want out of their games.

I happen to be one of the four people to own a Virtual Boy. Been a while since I fired it up. Your statement that it does better 3D than the 3DS 'ever will' is quite hard to take seriously. Have you ever had the (mis)fortune to play one yourself?

Could you please try and give a clear description of why you don't like 3D exactly? You know, out of curiosity? Maybe your eyes are fucked and you can't see it properly? What?

Totally agree with you on the movie part, but you're blaming the technology for the lack of other interesting things about Avatar. Suppose Cameron could somehow make us forget Aliens, undo the aging on actors and re-shoot the exact same film, frame for frame, but in 3D? I would know I would prefer that.

[kitten]

I happen to own both a 3DS and have played Ike's Virtual Boy (he does own one!). The Virtual Boy, by a significant margin, has better 3D, and left this impression on me the very second I put my eyes up to look into it. The 3D on the 3DS is no more significant a novelty than it was 15 years ago, and it's very far from the "next step" in gaming. I'd actually be willing to argue the 3DS's 3D is a genuine step back to more gimmicky times. Have you looked at the decline in popularity of 3D TV's since they've come out? Nobody wants them anymore.

Also, Ocarina of Time was ALWAYS a fucking shitty game.

[Karuvitomsk]

Jul 6, 2011 12:58:05 GMT -5 PooshhMao said:

People behave that way because, well, there is. The first step up was color (A2600) Then came bitmap graphics (8bit generation). Then parallax background scrolling (16bit). Then there were polygons. Now there's polygons in stereoscopic 3D.

You assume:

1- That those advancements were in any way "natural" or "planned".
2- That stereoscopic 3D is equatable to any of the mentioned advancements.

But they weren't and it isn't. Enhanced visuals are always wanted, sure, but it wasn't as if anyone said, "well, we've got color, so now we need to implement parallax." There is no "flow" of advancement here, only ideas economized, implemented, and well received. If we found a way to optimize lite-brite boards and use them for moving image displays, pixels wouldn't be the standard, would they? By this definition, 3D doesn't really make things easier or more efficient to make, so I guess you could call it a gimmick.

Jul 6, 2011 13:26:47 GMT -5 kitten said:

Also, Ocarina of Time was ALWAYS a fucking shitty game.

Look at me, so edgy and cool!
In all seriousness, there's stuff wrong with the game, it hasn't aged perfectly, but don't say that just for the sake of saying it.

[kitten]

It's a thread about the game. I posted my relevant opinion on the game. I don't feel like going into depth about why I think it's so awful, but even as a child I thought I was horrible!

[susanismyalias]

You posted it in a way designed to be intentionally provocative though, which was completely unnecessary.

[Arkanoid]

Jul 6, 2011 14:07:07 GMT -5 kitten said:

but even as a child I thought I was horrible!

Poor girl I'm sorry you felt that way about yourself. (Pssst you made a typo ). Anyway, we are a rare breed of OoT haters. I have always been kind of baffled at the popularity of this game actually. Now I haven't played it in years but I tried to like this game several times since first playing it in 1999 including attempts to start at the beginning as well as various points of the game on friends files. My main problem with it as well as most games in the series is that I find the combat to be so boring and I can't stand all of the mundane puzzles in the game. Now I have to admit I have never been a big fan of puzzles but the Zelda series has always thrown particularly tedious puzzles at the player and when I'm not even having fun fighting the enemies I just have nothing left to look forward to in this game. I have greatly enjoyed playing games like Landstalker, Beyond Oasis, RE4, Half-Life 2, and Light Crusader. Those are pretty much my favorites when it comes to blending action with puzzle-solving, even though Landstalker and Light Crusader hardly have better combat than Zelda, I have enjoyed those games so much more than Ocarina of Time.

[Haz]

If 3D's a "gimmick" then HD's a gimmick, too. They both only add more visual clarity (whereas 3D also adds better sense of depth). Still, they're one and the same.

I look at the 3DS library every time I go to GameStop and I have to emphatically disagree with you that it has a 'great library.' It's got an incredibly tiny library for having been out three months

The keyword here is three months. The DS also had just that much or even less by February 2005.

The game's major launch release was fucking Super Street Fighter 4. A game that had already been released twice before in a superior format and just got yet another release a few days ago.

With AE around now being the main game of the FGC I'd have to agree there but the 3DS version, due to extras and stuff that has to be paid for on console, is the still the best version of Super around once you get past the lolhandheldfightan, and BG graphical stuff notwithstanding. But whatever, I got the game for free in a contest, so...

Everything about the system screams "rushed." The system is not significantly different from my DS Lite. Its main advantages are the slider pad (which is a dubious gain at best) and DSiWare. My PSP had both of those capabilities 5 years ago (replacing DSiWare with PSN access, of course.)

But the PSP's silder pad sucks ass and is placed badly. The 3DS' feels a ton better, because there's more space for your thumb, for one. Also I'd say it's more in line with the DSi feature-wise, and how it feels and weighs.

Compare that to the Vita, which is offering up sub-PS3 graphics, which by any measure is leaps and bounds ahead of what Nintendo's offering us. The Vita's launch is a few months away yet and I may be proven wrong but I think Nintendo really fears this thing. I often wonder how different Nintendo's approach would be now if not for the PSN hack putting such a massive dent in Sony's customer base; their concern might be a little more obvious.

Because now you can play the SAME EXACT GAMES you can play on your PS3 or 360 with the SAME EXACT OUTPUT, except portable! Yay! (Don't get me wrong, Vita looks good, but the current lineup along with dev costs and them showing how easy it is to port only serves to throw more fuel on my fears.) Also, it's always been that way for Nintendo handhelds to have superior competitor entries. Just saiyan.

I bring this up because OoT3D is consistent. It doesn't look bad, but it doesn't quite match the 'organic' feeling that OoT, somehow, managed to achieve on the N64. The textures look better and there's definitely a polycount bump, but it's like they forgot took the original animations and simply stuck them whole hog onto the new models and forgot to animate the rest of their additions. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they did this.

Doesn't really matter; it looks just fine and true to the old game except better (Link and other characters actually has something resembling faces now)-- why animate what is never used?

You're confused. Link controls exactly the same as he did in the N64. He moves stiffly, compared to the N64 version(s) of him. His animations are off. If you've played the original you can see it - it's obvious to everyone who has played the original.

I'd say he moves smoother in the new game than he does in the original. And even then it's nothing to get that hung up over.

The game is not even targeted at new players, it's a clear play at nostalgia on Nintendo's part. If only they had made the box gold.

It's more general. I mean, the TV ads just show some guy playing it on his 3DS and the announcer going "THE LEGEND IS BACK IN 3D". Doesn't get any more general than that, and it's not like anyone doesn't know what OoT is.

If 3D were the next logical step up from polygon graphics, the Virtual Boy (which I argue does 3D better than the 3DS ever will) would not have been a spectacular failure.

I also owned one (with Wario Land VB, Mario Tennis, and Mario Clash). All I have to say is lolno. And the VB failed not because of the 3D, but because there were not enough games and support for it, it was prone to breaking down easily, and the only color in the screen was red. It was a short lived stopgap until the N64 was ready, and it didn't even last that long.

We've had 3D movies since the fucking 50s and yet they only recently seem to be coming into vogue, and even then there's a lot of ambiguity about whether or not it's a meaningful contribution to film. I would argue that it's a detriment more than anything. Truly immersive movies rely on their plots, their acting, and their writing to be immersive, not their visuals. Then you end up with shit like Avatar, where James Cameron thinks he can get away with rehashing Dances with Wolves with a space alien theme because his movie is pretty.

It doesn't mean visuals shouldn't matter or aren't immersive in themselves.. By that logic, we should just go back to AM radio, and ditch movies in general. I can't speak for Avatar since I haven't seen it, but if there's a good movie out there with excellently filmed visuals/action scenes, and it's in 3D, you bet your ass I'm gonna plop the $16 to see it that way, even if the glasses suck.

I can't fathom that this is what any sane person would want out of their games.

Send me to the asylum, then; Not saying it should be required, but if there's an option I'll take advantage of it (well, once I get a 3DTV, which is when only when they do the no glasses thing that the 3DS does, and with wider viewing angles so none of my friends watching are left out).

It adds to the gameplay. I find myself being that bit more careful when jumping chasms, not to mention it makes judging distances easier. It 'triggers' my fear of heights, and if a game manages to do that, you know it's doing something right.

It [the 3D] doesn't add to the gameplay. It can't.

Then why the hell have I seen people (not just here before, but in other places) basically saying "lol the 3D is useless unless it adds something significant to the gameplay"?

[Super Orbus]

I'll probably pick up a 3DS in two or three years. Preferably after the inevitable hardware refresh. Just like I've done with pretty much every other system. Once the library hits a critical mass and I can't resist anymore. It certainly isn't at that point yet.

Ocarina of Time was pretty amazing when it came out, but in my view hasn't aged particularly well. Link to the Past is still my favorite Zelda. Followed by Wind Waker. Ocarina's probably fourth or fifth. I think all the love for the game is primarily rooted in nostalgia. I certainly have fond memories of those days, but I don't particularly want to run out and spend a bunch of money so I can play it on the go.