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Post by Ike on Apr 15, 2015 1:21:45 GMT -5
This is one of the JRPGs on my bucket list, but I'm disappointed to hear the game was compromised, I was under the impression it was one of the greats instead of good but flawed, oh well. By the way, what it is the deal with JRPGs and the Gnostic idea of killing God? I can only assume that culturally the Japanese find monotheism inherently creepy, I mean doesn't Shintoism teach that there are many, many different Gods and Goddesses? So certainly the thought of a single all powerful deity has got to seem a little untrustworthy. But as to why that idea pops up the most in JPRGs is especially strange, maybe because you can't get more powerful an endboss than God himself? "Creator of the Universe" has a little more oomph for an endboss than "a slightly bigger dragon than the last few you fought" as far as melodrama goes. The whole "What if religion is, like, a lie and God is actually evil, man" is the sort of plotline that appeals to and resonates with the primary audience of early-mid teens boys. It's probably no more complicated than that. If there's anything particularly Japanese about it, it's that that type of plot is subversive in a way that is at the same time familiar but not represented in a large enough sphere of the general culture to spark any kind of actual outrage. In other words, the Christian concept of God is well known enough in Japan to have some weight to it, especially given the way Christianity made its way in to the country. You see fewer (if any?) western games being so explicit that the enemy you're fighting is Yahweh.
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strat
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Post by strat on Apr 15, 2015 2:05:53 GMT -5
I just beat Xenogears two years ago and am totally blanking on who this refers to. Dominia?
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Post by Ace Whatever on Apr 15, 2015 2:16:39 GMT -5
I just beat Xenogears two years ago and am totally blanking on who this refers to. Unless it's that kid from the village... I'm guessing he's referring to Ramsus since pretty much everyone else is dead .
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strat
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Post by strat on Apr 15, 2015 2:19:14 GMT -5
After making that post it occured to me it might be Dominia (Dan wouldn't really make any sense). Ramsus is still a big part of the story on disc 2, and still has a mad on for Fei until near the very end of the game. Edit: Dominia is also a boss on disc 2.
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Post by hudakj on Apr 15, 2015 2:24:09 GMT -5
Also noticed that the article made no mention on how poor the English dub was for the cutscenes. In addition (and in its defense), it may have been Square's earliest attempt at overseas voicework.
I particularly remember that early Lahan village cutscene and how grim the proceedings were suppose to be, but then once that kid creamed "ALIIICE!" in a strangely nasal voice, me and my friends just busted out laughing. There were also several instances were there was zero attempt at lip sync, resulting in some bad 70s era American dubbed kung-fu movie moments.
Kind of a prelude to FFX...
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Post by Sac (a.k.a Icaras) on Apr 15, 2015 3:29:33 GMT -5
I always thought people took the ending a little out of context. I will agree that the villain (I forget what it was called) is considered (a) "God" by the people of the Xenogears world (And I suppose it kind of is, given it used its powers to help the original version of Fei populated the barren world his ship crashed on), but at the end of the day it was still jut a powerful alien entity not the literally God. I recall there being a lto of talk back in the day that this was the game where you "killed God!" and that's pretty false.
Same with the ting that was trapped by the villain and set the events in motions, as its sole purpose was basically just to get home, but couldn't do it on its own.
Mind you it's been years since I played Xenogears, I really should give it another play some time.
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Post by hudakj on Apr 15, 2015 3:42:19 GMT -5
I always thought people took the ending a little out of context. I will agree that the villain (I forget what it was called) is considered (a) "God" by the people of the Xenogears world (And I suppose it kind of is, given it used its powers to help the original version of Fei populated the barren world his ship crashed on), but at the end of the day it was still jut a powerful alien entity not the literally God. I recall there being a lto of talk back in the day that this was the game where you "killed God!" and that's pretty false.
Same with the ting that was trapped by the villain and set the events in motions, as its sole purpose was basically just to get home, but couldn't do it on its own.
Mind you it's been years since I played Xenogears, I really should give it another play some time. This "God" discussion wasn't really about Xenogears, just an off-topic question about JRPGs in general. Because you're right, Xenogears doesn't have that kind of a boss, really just a spaceship that operated as an artificial "creator" of sentient organic life that's a vague god-like entity (hence the ship's name, Deus)...which is far more palatable that having a literal god be the final boss. Some of it was indirectly thematic though, like the whole "Adam and Eve" element.
I recall there is some sense of "fighting fate" but it's a sight better than many other JRPGs that go that route.
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Post by Sac (a.k.a Icaras) on Apr 15, 2015 3:43:08 GMT -5
I know, I was getting us back on top But allot of what I refer is stuff that was said about Xenogears back in and the day...and kind still said about it now.
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Post by llj on Apr 15, 2015 11:50:08 GMT -5
Xenogears is one of those "one-playthrough only games. I always recommend people play it through once, but I totally get not wanting to touch it again after that. I do like the mech battles here better than the ones in Xenosaga. They feel more like mecha battles than just hunks of metal standing in for RPG characters.
ABout the pacing, I do remember being stuck in that god-forsaken shanty town with the sewers for almost 10 hours.
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Post by kaoru on Apr 15, 2015 12:01:01 GMT -5
I do think the whole "god/the church is evil" and putting it into an individualism vs. fate thing comes more from the japanese prefering Paradise Lost as a jump off point when it comes to christian religion. And as already said, it usually boils down to "this fantasy world's god/creator" instead of literally the christian god, unless you play DDS:MT2 or SMT2.
The article mentions Xenoblade being part of the not-quite-franchise. Is it really? I only remember everyone always stating it very much is its own thing and just got renamed Xenoblade because they felt like it. I mean, sure, there are some thematic similarities, but I always thought that's more Tetsuya Takahashi being Tetsuya Takahashi. 's
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Post by Allie on Apr 15, 2015 14:35:18 GMT -5
I really don't think it's more that "God" being the highest enemy tier and a natural for a hard final boss. Often times it's not so much THE God, but "The Dark God" or some such manifestation of evil. That or it's some sort of super-human or artificial "creator" that considers itself a god or god-like. I'm not really a fan of the trend of fighting an actual god since it doesn't often seem plausible that "God" could be beaten by a mortal (that is unless you are being supported by another "good" god). In addition it way too often boils down into some sort of generic statement about self-determinism vs fate that gets old long before the first 10 times it's rehashed. The only positive portrayal of "G-d" in a JRPG that I can think of is maybe Dragon Quest 7. But yeah, the rest of them feel like the whole "fighting fate" shit (which is ironic, given the Japanese maxim about the nail that stands up...). Edit: Also, someone needs to tell the Japanese that quoting/aping Nietzsche is SOOOOO middle-school... while they're at it, maybe they can remind Icyhot too... Good God, I don't think I could have rolled my eyes any harder when even the Skull Man anime started shoehorning Nietzsche into the plot.
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Post by The Great Klaid on Apr 15, 2015 16:53:06 GMT -5
I always thought people took the ending a little out of context. I will agree that the villain (I forget what it was called) is considered (a) "God" by the people of the Xenogears world (And I suppose it kind of is, given it used its powers to help the original version of Fei populated the barren world his ship crashed on), but at the end of the day it was still jut a powerful alien entity not the literally God. I recall there being a lto of talk back in the day that this was the game where you "killed God!" and that's pretty false.
Same with the ting that was trapped by the villain and set the events in motions, as its sole purpose was basically just to get home, but couldn't do it on its own.
Mind you it's been years since I played Xenogears, I really should give it another play some time. Naming it deus probably didn't help. Asuming that the final boss is what you're talking about. A lot of what the hell that was made no sense to me
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Post by hudakj on Apr 15, 2015 19:09:47 GMT -5
I always thought people took the ending a little out of context. I will agree that the villain (I forget what it was called) is considered (a) "God" by the people of the Xenogears world (And I suppose it kind of is, given it used its powers to help the original version of Fei populated the barren world his ship crashed on), but at the end of the day it was still jut a powerful alien entity not the literally God. I recall there being a lto of talk back in the day that this was the game where you "killed God!" and that's pretty false.
Same with the ting that was trapped by the villain and set the events in motions, as its sole purpose was basically just to get home, but couldn't do it on its own.
Mind you it's been years since I played Xenogears, I really should give it another play some time. Naming it deus probably didn't help. Asuming that the final boss is what you're talking about. A lot of what the hell that was made no sense to me Understandable considering it's pretty easy to get confused/lost among the text dump that is Disc 2.
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Xenogears
Apr 17, 2015 8:18:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by wyldesyde on Apr 17, 2015 8:18:32 GMT -5
My brother picked this game up last year or the year before from a local retro game store. I have yet to jump into it but he was only able to stomach it for about 5 hrs or so.
I think I'll attempt it within the next year as I continue to plow through my massive backlog.
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Post by akirikasu on Apr 17, 2015 19:15:16 GMT -5
Xenogears is one of those "one-playthrough only games. I always recommend people play it through once, but I totally get not wanting to touch it again after that. I do like the mech battles here better than the ones in Xenosaga. They feel more like mecha battles than just hunks of metal standing in for RPG characters. ABout the pacing, I do remember being stuck in that god-forsaken shanty town with the sewers for almost 10 hours. I really think one needs to play Xenogears more than once to completely understand it. It's a bit... dense with details. Then again, one could just read Perfect Works and get a much better understanding of everything. I think that Nortune is there because they intended for Rico to be a much bigger and more important character to the story. I mean, seriously, he was revealed to be the Kaiser's son and then the story just drops it. Perhaps he was supposed to take over Kieslev like Bart ended up doing? And, to be fair, Hammer comes up again as a boss; it seems like a lot of his 'screentime' was cut as well. I feel that Esmerelda got a lot cut out, too. I'm pretty sure that Xenoblade is not even remotely part of the Xenoverse. I remember reading a lot about how the title was changed last-minute "as a tribute to Takahashi" (and not as a total cash grab). But then again I couldn't stand to play more than an hour on the thing.
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